Babyl Options: Append:1 Version:5 Reformat-Headers-P Summary-Window-Format: Use Default  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA08325; Tue, 9 Nov 93 03:42:40 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA26679; Tue, 9 Nov 93 04:41:39 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 4:42:12 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 17:40:31 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2059D8B35D6@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Here is my own try at a fancy, all singing all dancin' sorcery system, adapted from the RQ4 Sorcery draft. Comments welcome, particularly from Burton Cholinski, Paul Reilly, and those associated with the previous Sorcery draft. Cheers Dave Cake YET ANOTHER SORCERY SYSTEM INTRODUCTION This is my own very rough draft of a sorcery system. It is based on both the RQ4 draft, Burtons Cholinskis system, previous unpublished ideas of my own. The basis is separating out the effect of the spell and the intended target into two separate skills. These target skills are called studies, the name taken directly from Burtons system (I contemplated other names - forms, domains, realms - but stuck with study because people seemed to like it. I am not attached to the terminology myself, and would probably prefer domain). Note that this is very far from a finished draft, as will become obvious. There are a number of places where there is further work to be done, or where I have made a decision but I think that the matter is still very open to debate. Scattered through the text are a number of places where there are authors annotations delimited by three asterisks at the start and end (***). These are places for me to explain my reasoning, and are put in to encourage people who wish to debate my decisions to understand my perspective. The two main thrusts of my ideas are to give RQ sorcerers a broader range of abilities (if still often specialised) and to maintain compatibility with the RQ3 sorcery rules. I (obviously) acknowledge both Burtons system, and the RQ4 draft as the source of many of the ideas and specifics. I would also mention the Chivalry and Sorcery Basic Magick system as an influence, and particularly Ars Magica (though I came up with the basics before I read Ars Magica). I would also like to mention Colin Watsons Rune Sorcery system as another system that basically tries to achieve the same thing, though I wrote this before reading his system. (Apart from this introduction). I differ from Burtons system by not trying to make the system cover all the existing spells, by making much more of an attempt to maintain RQ3 compatibility, and by wanting to retain the existing RQ3 ritual magic system. I value RQ3 compatibility a great deal, certainly more than Burton or some of the supporters of his system do. I also felt that many of the combinations that made up spells were somewhat forced. I particularly value maintaining the basics of the RQ3 Enchant system, rather than Burtons all purpose Permanent. The main way I differ in philosophy from Colin Watsons Rune Sorcery system is in the nature of the generalised skills, and in that I do not try to apply the generalised skills to everything. I also have consciously avoided Gloranthan Runes for most things. This is partly because I wanted to have more specificity (I wanted skills for emotions, senses, very specific substances like bone and iron) and partly because it appears that Greg Stafford is moving away from the concept of the Runes as an integral part of Gloranthan magic, particularly sorcery. I have more or less retained them for the elements (which appear to be a concept established in the West) but not much else. Some of the rune combinations assigned to spells came across as very forced, IMHO, and certainly not wildly intuitive. Generally though, I rather like Colins system, and his actual mechanics are certainly a viable alternative to mine, as far as I can see, and in some ways prefereable (though they make for tough sorcerers!). Apart from the addition of studies, I differ from the draft in many small ways. The main difference is that I retain much more of the RQ3 Ritual magic system than the draft. I am also quite happy to be a bit more lenient than the draft was on the amount of manipulation, and I am actually in favour of logarithmic rather than linear Duration and Range, as the amount of manipulation possible is generally rather reduced so it rather unlikely that anyone is going to be casting week or month long spells (at least not in most campaigns). It also makes the true Magus, who has the skills well over 100% that enable him to make his spells last for months and have a range of kilometres, the object of fear he should be. Another change is that I am very much in favour of Multispell as a generally available skill, rather than unique to the Carmanians, partly for RQ3 compatibility, and partly because it is too useful and important be restricted to a comparitively minor school of sorcery. I really like what I have seen of the Paul Reilly et al 'Second soul' system, and if people like this system, then I would like the two systems to be integrated into one. The most obvious criticism of this system is that it makes sorcery more complex. Unfortunately I can't see any way of simplifying it without losing the basic concept or introducing inconsistencies. I actually don't think it is a real problem, even with these rules playing a RQ sorcerer is no more complicated than playing a Shadowrun magician or an Ars Magica mage, both sucessful magic systems. SORCERY Sorcery is the third major form of RuneQuest magic. Sorcery acts by manipulating the natural laws and forms of the Universe. The basic arts of sorcery consists of a large number of skills of various types. These skills are generally divided into sorcery spells, general magical skills, sorcerous manipulations, studies, and miscellaneous skills. Miscellaneous skills are those skills that have no direct magical effect, but that are often learnt by sorcerers as part of their training (such as lores and some crafts). It is the responsibility of the sorcerer not only to know how to manipulate the laws of the world, but to know the worlds natural laws as well. It is also common for sorcerers to study the various inhabitants of the otherworld, to study history and legend (and theology for Malkioni), and to study craft skills that aid in enchanting. General magical skills are those skills that are common to all types of magic, and are necessary for certain magical operations. They are Ceremony, Summon, and Enchant. Spells are those skills that are necessary to cast magic directly. Studies are those skills that are necessary to cast a spell on a particular type of thing. Note that the term 'studies' is a rules term, not in common use in Glorantha. Sorcerous manipulations are skills that enable properties of spells other than what is affected to be changed. The most common (known by almost all schools of sorcery) include Range, Duration, Intensity and Multispell. Other rarer skills include Speed, Ease, and Combine, for example. Again, these are not necessarily the names by which they are known in Glorantha. What skills are available for teaching varies wildly by what school of sorcery the sorcerer is a member of, and his status according to that school. The bulk of schools in Glorantha divide their magic into Low magic (including easy spells and the Intensify manipulation) and High magic (all other spells and manipulations known to the school), and teach High magic only to those with the status of Wizard or Noble. Many skills are not known by all schools. The only major school that does not really have the High/Low distinction is the Vadeli (who talk about Sailors magic, captains magic, fishers magic, etc. and have no specific sorcerer class). Other schools may think of things differently. Among Carmanians, for example, the term Low Magic generally refers to the spirit and divine magic used by the peasantry, and the term High magic may also include non sorcerous magic that is restricted to the nobility (such as some Lunar divine magic). LEARNING SORCERY This is highly culture dependent, but here are some guidelines. LOW MAGIC The most common form of sorcery is Low Magic, the simplest and easiest of sorcery spells. These spells are also known as cantrips. In regions where sorcery is the dominant form of magic, almost everyone learns some Low Magic. Many people also learn the skills of Intensity and Ceremony. Someone who knows only Low Magic is called a student or novice. An acolythist is an apprentice in training. If a foreigner or stranger wants to learn low magic, he or she needs to find a sorcerer willing to teach it and make a traditional gift worth at least 100 L. If the GM wishes a method to quickly abstract finding a willing teacher, a character who spends a season searching in a civilized culture succeeds on a roll of POWx5. A character who spends an entire year searching in a primitive, nomadic, or barbarian culture succeeds on a roll of POWx1. HIGH MAGIC In theory, anyone can study High Magic spells. In practice, only the upper classes learn it. Only those of apprentice rank and above may learn manipulation skills other than Intensity. The most common manipulation skills are Range and Duration. APPRENTICES To become an apprentice, an applicant must have a magic skill bonus of at least +10 percent and Read Own Language at 25% or better. (The +10 magic bonus is needed to learn advanced manipulation skills.) Some schools or masters have other requirements as well, such as social class, kinship, or gender. The applicant must find a sorcerer interested in taking on an apprentice, and convince the sorcerer to take him or her on as a student. The GM can abstract this as a POWx3 roll made once a year if searching in a civilized culture. (Sorcerers in a primitive, nomad or barbarian culture will rarely stay there long enough to take on apprentices.) If accepted, the applicant must donate a point of POW in an apprentice bonding ritual to the master or the master's familiar to establish a bond. An apprenticeship traditionally lasts at least 7 years, at the end of which the apprentice learns how to create a familiar for him or herself. ADEPTS An apprentice who has completed an apprenticeship and created a familiar is an adept, although some cultures have different terms. SORCERY SPELLS Skill in a sorcery spell determines two things: 1) It is the maximum percentage chance of successfully casting a spell. 2) It sets the total amount of manipulation which the caster can put into the spell (to be split among Intensity, Duration, Range, and so on). Divide the sorcery spell skill by five, rounding to the nearest whole number. This is the total amount of manipulation which the sorcerer can add to the spell. For example, someone with 2% in a spell can not put any manipulation into it, and can only cast the basic 1 point spell. (All spells automatically have one point of intensity.) With 5%, the sorcerer can add one level of manipulation (round up). Someone with 100% in a spell can add twenty levels of manipulation. *** Note the change from spell/10 to spell/5. I put this is because I thought that the TOTAL manipulation in a spell was not a play balance problem in RQ3, and I thought that spell/10 was unnecessarily restrictive. Note that the amount of any single manipulation remains manipulation/10, so this change does not actually increase the amount of any single manipulation available, unless spell skill is less than half the amount the manipulation in question. *** SORCERY MANIPULATIONS Skill in a sorcery manipulation (such as Intensity, Range, Duration) sets the maximum amount of the manipulation that the sorcerer can use. Divide the manipulation skill by ten (rounding to the nearest whole number). That number is the maximum amount of that manipulation which the sorcerer can use with any spell. Example: A sorcerer with Neutralize Magic 76%, Intensity 64%, Duration 38%, and Range 51% can cast Neutralize Magic and add up to 8 total levels of manipulation (7.6 rounded), using up to a maximum of 6 levels of Intensity (6.4 rounded), 4 levels of Duration (3.8 rounded), and 5 levels of Range (5.1 rounded). A typical high-powered spell might be Intensity 7 and Range 2. (Remember that a base spell is Intensity 1.) The chance to successfully cast the spell is 75%, regardless of the amount of manipulation used. MULTISPELL *** I thought that I would include it here for completeness *** This manipulation lets a caster cast more than one spell at a time. It works faster than casting them one at a time. Each level of Multispell lets a caster cast one additional spell. The sorcerer sets the amount of manipulation (Intensity, Range, Duration) he or she will use, and then decides how much Multispell to use. All spells must have the same manipulations. However, Touch spells gain no range this way, and Instant spells gain no duration, even when combined with ranged or temporal spells. The time needed to cast the spells is calculated as if a single spell were cast: 3 SR + DEX SR + Total manipulation used in SR (including Multispell). All the spells go off at the same time. Roll once for all the spells to see if they succeed. Depending on the spell skills involved, the caster may succeed with some and fail with others. The magic point cost of the casting is equal to the normal cost for each spell multiplied by the total number of spells cast, regardless of the success or failure of individual spells. The caster can direct each spell at a different target if all targets are within range and sight of the caster. The caster can also cast them all at the same target. A caster can also use Multispell to cast spells on each other, such as casting Ward Magic on a spell to make it difficult to detect with Detect Magic or Mystic Vision. If Neutralise Magic and another spell are combined using Multispell, the Neutralise Magic affects defensive spells after other Instant spells are resolved, but before other Temporal spells are resolved. *** that last point needs to be resolved one way or another, and I thought I would make it a useful technique, but I decided that allowing it to clear the way for other instant spells makes it too good (there is very little reason not too, if you have a high Neutralise magic). *** Multispell is a Hard Magic skill, and can only be learned by a character with a +10 or greater Magic bonus. *** I made it Hard where the draft had it as Very Hard, because I conceive as Multispell as being a very common spell among experienced sorcerers, an essential tool. However, it probably doesn't make that much difference, as a little Multispell goes a long way (30% skill allows you to combine 4 spells in one), so maybe Very Hard is OK. *** CASTING TIME IN STRIKE RANKS (SR) In melee, a sorcery spell cast goes off at: 3 SR (preparation time) + the sorcerer's DEX SR + the total MP used in SR. At that time, the player or gamemaster rolls to see if the spell succeeds. A spell that takes more than 10 SR to cast takes 1 melee round for every 10 SR, and then goes off in the next melee round at the SR remaining. (For example, a 21 SR spell takes two full melee rounds and then goes off on SR 1 of the third round.) Example: A 16 DEX sorcerer adds 2 levels of Intensity, 1 level of Duration, and 1 level of Range to a Smother spell. This costs him 1 (base) +2 (added Intensity) +1 (added Duration) +1 (added Range) = 5 MP. It results in a 3 Intensity Smother spell with a duration of 20 minutes and a range of 50 meters. The player rolls on SR 3 (preparation) + 2 (DEX) + 5 (total MP used) = SR 10. STUDIES Studies are divided into various groups of equivalent things. Spells which require a study will typically require studies from a specific group or groups. Studies are generally Easy or Medium skills. Substances. Easy Wood, Cloth, Bone, Bronze, Medium Fire, Water, most Rune Metals, Darkness, Earth, Air, Lunar, Flesh Hard Iron Characteristics Medium STR, CON, SIZ, APP, INT, DEX Senses Easy (for humans) Sight Medium (for humans) Smell, Touch, Taste, Hearing Hard (for humans) Darksense, Elfsense, Earthsense Species Easy Humans, your own species, common domestic animals, common spirits Medium Wild animals, other intelligent species, uncommon spirits Hard Demons, very unusual species. *** how easy these should be is really a question for play balance. The real question is where humans and other intelligent species go. It may well be that intelligent beings should be Hard (to make Dominate and Shapechange difficult spells), but then Detect Human and various other similar spells would be probably too difficult. Personally I do not think that it is a problem, because it will be unusual to cast Dominate at any high level (because of Intensity/10 limit). Perhaps Dominate could be rewritten if it is seen as a problem? Rarity of spells is a related issue - Dominate Human, formerly rare and exotic, becomes common -but usually less powerful. *** SPELLS NOTATION Some spells have two part names, and often the subject will be generic rather than specific. There are two forms. If the generic is in angle brackets (<>) then this indicates the spell requires a study to provide a subject. If the subject is in square brackets ([]) then this indicates that several variants of the spells exist. SPELL LIST Bind Attach, Glue, Holdfast, Lock, Patch Ranged, Temporal, Passive Creates a 10 cm x 10 cm patch which glues two objects together with a STR of 5. Each additional Intensity adds either another 10 cm x 10 cm to the area (which the caster can shape as desired) or another 5 STR to the spell. Once someone or something overcomes the spell's STR, it is broken. The spell cannot affect living tissue or living vegetable matter. Bless [Tool or Weapon] Saint's Touch, Secret Touch, Temporal, Passive Makes a specific weapon or tool 5% more effective for the duration of the spell. Each additional Intensity adds another 5%. With a weapon, the spell adds to either the attack or the parry percentage with that weapon for that melee round, at the wielder's option. With a tool, it adds to skills that use that tool, but only for the duration of the spell. Long jobs take many castings of the spell or long duration. The spell has no effect on a different weapon or tool. Thus, Bless Spear has no effect on a broadsword or a hoe. The spell does not increase the knowledge of the tool user in any way, it simply makes the tool's use more effective. Bless Plume lets you Write better in the sense of better-formed characters, not in the sense of better choice of words. The spell affects a tool or weapon with an ENC of 6 or less. It takes twice as many Intensities to affect a tool or weapon with an ENC from 6 to 12, three times as many to affect a tool or weapon with an ENC from 12 to 18, and so on. *** I do not really know how to fit this into the Studies system. Suggestions are welcome (I like the spells - a nice low power bladesharp style spell, with mundane uses as well). One suggestion is that skill in using the implement counts as the study (so Sword attack or Craft:Blacksmithing counts as study for Bless Sword or Bless Blacksmiths Hammer respectively), which has the effect of making skill VERY important. Another option is just to leave this spell with multiple version, or use the appropriate . *** Detect Dowsing, Sense, Unmask, Witch's Eye Ranged, Temporal, Active If the caster concentrates, he or she sees a glow around each spell target that is within spell range. No one else can see this glow. The spell penetrates 1 meter of dense substance (such as earth, wood, or metal) per point of Intensity. It can be cast without any species study, in which case it acts as Detect Life. Enhance Dog's Nose, Long Ear, Saint's Sight, Secret of Ranged, Temporal, Active If the target of the spell concentrates, the specific sense that the spell affects (Sight, Hearing, Smell) becomes more effective. Multiply the effective range at which the sense functions by the Intensity plus one. For example, a character with an Intensity 3 Enhance Sight can see 3 + 1 = 4 times as far as normal. Senses that are 0 range become more sensitive as well, but the effects are not as precisely defined. Taste allows you to taste things at lower concentrations, touch allows you to feel finer details of the surface, etc. A bonus of +5% to appropriate skills may be appropriate, but often the effects of these unusual spells will be left to the GM. Increase Banish Frailty, Enchance , Secret of , Taste of Solace Touch, Temporal, Passive This spell adds 1 point per Intensity to the appropriate characteristic (STR, CON, DEX, APP), to a limit of double the current characteristic. Such increases do not affect experience or research rolls. Restore Crafter's Secret, Shortcut Touch, Instant Repairs 1 point of damage per Intensity. A shattered or severely damaged item needs a successful Craft [as appropriate] roll as well, to make it functional again. If the caster fails the Craft roll, the amount by which the roll is missed shows how badly put together the object is. *** an excellent example of a spell that integrates very nicely with both the Studies system, and the normal skill system *** Treat Wounds Xemela's Touch, Balm Touch, Instant The base spell stops bleeding from a wound. Each two points of Intensity heal 1 point of damage in a location. For example, a Intensity 4 spell heals 2 points of damage in a location and stops the bleeding from that wound. An Intensity 3 spell stops bleeding from one wound and heals one point of damage. The caster must touch the part of the body he or she is healing. The spell cannot restore severed limbs. HIGH MAGIC SPELLS High Magic spells are Medium skills, unless otherwise stated. The format lists the name by which the spell appears in Zzabur's Blue Book first, then several other common names for the spell. Animate Man of , Walking (Thing), Zombie Ranged, Active, Temporal Hard Animates 3 SIZ per Intensity of a solid substance, or 1 cubic meter per Intensity of a non-solid element (fire, water, air). The animated thing has a base movement rate of 1 meter per round. The caster can increase this with additional Intensity: each level of Intensity used for this adds 1 meter per round to the movement rate. The animated object has a chance to do any action equal to the caster's DEX x 3 or skill (such as Climb or Jump), whichever is greater. As a rule of thumb, an animated solid substance (including earth) does damage equal to 1d2 per 3 SIZ if it lands a blow, animated air and water causes 1d4 points of knockback damage per cubic meter, and animated fire causes fire damage based on its size (as per the Fire and Heat table on page ??). Boost Damage Cleave Iron, Damage Boosting, Talor's Sword Ranged, Passive, Temporal Affects any tool or anything that can be used as a weapon (such as a fist or sword). Each level of Intensity adds 1 point to the damage that object does when it strikes. (Simply touching someone or something with the object does not cause damage.) The base spell affects a weapon of up to 6 ENC, and the caster can use additional levels of Intensity to affect bulkier weapons at the rate of one level of Intensity per 6 additional ENC. Boost Range Bless Bow, Boost Missile, Bull's Eye Ranged, Passive, Temporal Allows a missile weapon to fire missiles out to the maximum range of the spell with no range penalties (that is, a base range of 25 meters, plus 25 meters for each level of Range). Cast Ranged, Passive, Temporal Causes the target to be affected by the appropriate emotion. The precise effects depend on the emotion. In all cases, an INT x 1 roll allows the target to realise that they are affected by the spell (higher if they are expecting it), and they can attempt to dispel or otherwise counter it. Opposite emotions cancel out. The next few spells are examples of particular emotions. Cast Confusion Cause Confusion, Perplex, Flabbergast, Stupefacation Ranged, Temporal, Passive When cast upon a target with normal INT, every time they attempt to use a skill or cast a spell there is a 10% chance per Intensity of spell that they forget what they know of the skill or spell. If a skill has a base chance of greater than 0%, it can be used at its base chance of success (base plus bonus) only. If the target of the spell succeeds in an INTx1 roll when he or she is first affected by the spell, he or she realizes that they have been affected by the spell, and can attempt to dispel or otherwise magically counter the effects of the spell. Cast Courage Enrage, Make Peasant Fight, Vision of Rage Ranged, Passive, Temporal Increases the chance to hit in melee by half again, when cast on a being with normal INT. The target cannot parry or cast magic other than attack spells. He or she can still Dodge, but at half skill. Characters outside of melee (such as missile users) attack and Dodge normally. Each additional level of Intensity adds 5% to the chance to hit and subtracts another 5% from Dodge. If the target of the spell succeeds in an INT x 1 roll when first affected by the spell, he or she realizes that the spell is in effect, and can attempt to dispel or otherwise magically counter the effects of the spell. Each Intensity of Cast Fear cancels one Intensity of Cast Courage. Cast Desire Cause Love, Love Hex, Vision of Beauty, Wandering Eye Ranged, Passive, Temporal This spell causes its victim to see a target of the caster's choice as sexually attractive, adding 1 to the target's effective APP for each Intensity of the spell. Both victim and target must be within range of the spell. If the victim fails a roll of his or her POW vs. the effective APP of the target, the target can seduce him or her. If the victim of the spell succeeds in an INT x 1 roll when first affected by the spell, he or she realizes that a spell is in effect, and can attempt to dispel or otherwise magically counter the effects of the spell. Of course, a victim is seduced more easily by someone he or she would be attracted to without the spell, and it is very hard to make the victim go to bed with someone who would ordinarly be repulsive to that person. Each Intensity of Cast Desire cancels one Intensity of Cast Malice. Cast Malice Curse of Hate, Traitors Heart, Cause hatred, Create Enemy Ranged, Passive, Temporal This spell causes its victim to see a target as an enemy. It does not create blind fury, or make them attack them immediately, but it does cause unreasoning resentment. Both Victim and target must be in range of the spell. The effects of this spell are highly roleplaying dependent. It is difficult to overcome strong friendships and love with this spell, though it can make things difficult temporarily. Each Intensity of Cast Malice cancels one Intensity of Cast Desire. *** I stuck this one in for completeness really, but I rather like it. *** Cast Fear Cause Fear, Evil Eye, Frighten, Turn Foe, Vision of Fear Ranged, Passive, Temporal Lowers morale of a being with normal INT. If the target believes the situation is bad, he or she attacks at only half percentage, and can cast only defensive and healing spells. An Intensity 2 spell causes this effect regardless of whether or not the target believes he or she is outclassed. Every level of Intensity beyond the first 2 subtracts 5% from the target's chance to attack. If the target of the spell succeeds in an INT x 1 roll when first affected by the spell, he or she realizes that the spell is in effect, and can attempt to dispel or otherwise magically counter the effects of the spell. Each Intensity of Cast Courage cancels one Intensity of Cast Fear. Conceal Hide, No Sign, Shield, Veil Touch, Temporal, Passive Hard Each level of Intensity of this spell blocks one Intensity of the Detect or Show spell it is specific for. In other words, an Intensity 3 Detect Malice spell (or a spirit magic Detect Enemies or Divine Find Enemies) will not detect an enemy who is shielded by an Intensity 3 Conceal Malice spell. Cloak Silence, No Smell, Hide Touch, temporal, Passive Each level of Intensity makes you more difficult to detect with that sense, adding +15% to appropriate skill rolls, though only if that sense is used to detect you. *** This replaces Conceal [Object, Self, etc.] which I thought seemed to obviously designed as a skill enhancer spell. This spell fulfills a similar purpose with more style, and fits in better with studies. An option would be instead of +15% on stealth skills, -10% on Perception rolls to detect.*** Conceal Soul Belittle, Inconspicuousness Touch, Temporal, Passive Hard This spell decreases its target's apparent POW and MP by 2 points per level of Intensity. This increases Stealth skills as if the target's POW were actually lower. Decrease Make Frail, Neutralize , Reduce , Weaken Ranged, Temporal, Passive This spell subtracts 1 point per Intensity to the appropriate characteristic (STR, CON, DEX, APP or Move). Decrease Vigor is Instant, and causes the target to lose 1 level of short term fatigue for every two Intensities of the spell used (for every 10 points or fraction thereof over 20 SIZ, reduce the effective Intensity by one). *** If move is on the RQ3 scale where human Move is 3, should only subtract intensity/3 from Move *** Dominate Beguile, Charm, Fascination, Puppet Ranged, Temporal, Active (until commanded, then Passive) Hard Spell description as per RQ III. *** As noted, Intensity/10 limit makes this much less useful (it is difficult to even Dominate a Pow 10 simple spirit). However, the study system probably means spells like Dominate Human are far more common. *** Illusion of Fantasy, Phanom , Reify Thought Ranged, Temporal, Active As per RQ III, but maximum effect at 10 Intensities (as per the Chaosium errata). Invoke Berm, Brighten, Flare, Fountain, Shroud, Summon , Wall of , Wind Ranged, Instant/Temporal Causes some of a specific element to appear where there was none before, depending on how common the element is to the surroundings. If it is common, 1 cubic meter per Intensity appears; if it is uncommon, 1/2 cubic meter per Intensity appears; if it is rare, 1/5 cubic meter per Intensity appears; if it is normally impossible, none appears. The caster can distribute the amount that appears as he or she likes, but it can not be less than 1/10 of a meter in any dimension. Invoke Light and Invoke Dark can create barriers that one cannot see through. Elements that are not normally native to the surroundings (tyically Dark, Light and Fire) will only remain for the duration of the spell, then vanish (Fire however, can spread naturally if summoned onto or adjacent to flammable material). Elements normally found in the surroundings (typically Air, Water and Earth) remain even after the spell expires. Some guidelines: Common Uncommon Rare Impossible Air from air. Air from water. Air from earth. Air from fire. Water from water. Water from earth. Water from air. Water from fire. Earth from earth. Earth from fire. Earth from water. Earth from air. Fire from fire. Fire from air. Fire from earth. Fire from water. Dark from water. Dark from earth. Dark from air. Dark from fire. Light from fire. Light from air. Light from water. Light from earth. Invoke Ranged, Instant This spell brings some of the substance within range to the caster. Thus if cast were none of the substance is within range, it does nothing. It does not usually effect the substance if held by someone (Intensity matched vs. MP). Thus Invoke Iron is generally only useful if in an area with a lot of unworked Iron (but it makes a nifty mining technique). *** I am a bit iffy about this spell. Comments welcome. I decided to generalise Invoke Element. *** Form Craft, Mold, Shape, Transform Ranged, Temporal, Passive Forms 1 SIZ per Intensity of 3 AP of the appropriate substance into a temporary rough form. When the spell ends, the laws of nature hold sway again, and the substance attempts to revert to its original form, often with only partial success. Each additional level of Intensity can affect another point of SIZ or an additional 3 AP of the substance. Affecting 6 kg (1 SIZ) of 6 AP bronze takes a total of 2 Intensities. The spell must affect the entire object for it to work. *** Probably embodies the study system, this spell is the most basic representation of the concept. *** Palsy Cripple, Enfeeble, Paralyze Ranged, Passive, Temporal Strikes at a random hit location. If the caster succeeds in a MP vs. MP roll, and the spell has an Intensity equal to or greater than half the HP in the location, the target cannot use the location. Targets struck in the head, chest or abdomen suffer the same result as if the location had fallen to 0 HP, even though no actual damage or bleeding occurs. Project Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Floating (Eye, Ear, Nose), Projection, Spy Ranged, Temporal, Active (if moving or sensing, otherwise Passive) Lets the caster project the specified sense out to the maximum range of the spell. If the caster moves out of the maximum range, the spell ends. The caster can move the viewpoint at a base speed of 1 meter per melee round. Each additional level of Intensity adds 1 meter per melee round to the base speed. The spell cannot penetrate more than 1 meter of dense substance (not necessarily contiguous) per Intensity (movement slows by 1 meter per round for every meter of dense substance, until it reaches 0). The viewpoint is immaterial - one can detect it magically and dispel it, but other magical spells or physical attacks have no effect on it. When focusing on the projected sense, the caster cannot make normal use of the sense. For example, a sorcerer using Project Sight cannot see what is in front of his body, only what is in front of the projected viewpoint. Project Touch only causes the caster to lose the sense of touch from his or her hands. Mystic Analyze Aura, Eye of Truth, Magesight, Wizard's Sight, Mystic Vision Ranged, Temporal, Active (when using, otherwise Passive), Smell Magic, Smell Soul, Hear Power, Song of the Soul Augments the target's sense so that they can sense the aura of Magic Points of a creature or spirit, and can tell whether the Magic Points are within 5 of his or her Magic Points, less than that, or more than that. In addition, the caster can sense magic, with greater detail at higher levels of Intensity. The basic spell gives only a rough idea as to the strength of the magic. At 5 intensities, the target begins to sense something of the basic purpose of the magic, and at 10 Intensities, the target may get ideas as to the nature of the magic. Lore skills, such as Magic Lore, or Sorcery Lore, can greatly enhance one's ability to understand the magic (see skills). Any layer of dense substance blocks the ability of the caster to see Magic Points, and each meter of dense substance blocks 1 Intensity of magic detection. Barriers and the surounding aura affect other sense differently. For example smell is not necessarily blocked by barriers, but is easily drowned out by powerful auras nearby. An appropriate sense roll may be necessary to discover details or other hard to sense things, usually scan for sight. This severely restricts the usefulness of this spell for some senses for most humans. Neutralize Magic Dispel, Reduce Magic, Remove Blessing, Remove Curse, Unhex, Valkaro's Glance Ranged, Instant As per RQ III. Regenerate Regrow, Restore Wholeness, Xemela's Tears Touch, Temporal, Passive Hard The base spell allows the caster to reattach a newly severed organ (within the normal time limits). The spell will otherwise cause a maimed or severed organ to regrow at 10% per season per Intensity (if this was not done so already, roll 1d100 to determine the percentage of the limb that was maimed or severed). Note that the spell needs to be recast often unless the caster greatly extends the duration. May be able to Regenerate damage to senses (blindness, deafness, etc.) if combined with study. To heal unusual ailments requires , and to heal injuries to other races may require . Regain Life Miracle of Healing, Wizard Balm, Xemela's Salve Touch, Instant Hard Each Intensity heals 1 of location hit point damage or 1/3 HP of general HP damage (that is, each point of general HP damage requires 3 Intensities). Remove Life Venom, Neutralize Life, Reduce Life, Swift Curse Ranged, Instant Does 1d2 per Intensity in general HP damage to its target. Resist Bleeding Armor of Paslac, Knight's Bandage Touch, Temporal, Passive Each Intensity keeps a single wound from bleeding. Wounds treated with First Aid or a healing magic do not resume bleeding once the spell duration expires. One can cast the spell before or after the wounds occur. Resist Death Bar the Gate, Preserve Breath Touch, Temporal, Passive The target of the spell does not die after taking twice his or her total HP. Each Intensity lets the target go one HP below his or her HP as a negative number before dying (though the target is still unconscious if at 0 HP or below). For example, a character with 11 HP, who normally dies at -11 HP, only dies at -14 HP or beyond if he or she has a 3 Intensity Resist Death spell. cast on him or her. In addition, the spell adds its Intensity to the target's MP for the purposes of resisting death magic (Remove Life, Disruption, and Sever Spirit are all examples of death magic). Resist Disease Cure Malady, Ward Disease, Xemela's Holy Kiss Touch, Instant Each Intensity gives +5% to the character's next roll to resist the effects of a disease. Resist Poison Antidote, Antivenin, Neutralize Venom, Ward Snakebite Touch, Temporal, Passive Each Intensity of the spell negates 3 HP of poison damage. The spell decreases by one Intensity for every 3 HP of poison damage so negated. The spell has no effect on poison damage suffered before casting the spell. One can cast it before exposure to the poison, or after exposure but before the damage has occurred. Shapechange to Alter Shape, Shapeshift, Transform to , Twist Form Ranged, Passive, Temporal Hard The spell must have a an Intensity of at least 1 for every 3 points of SIZ of the target, and must succeed in a Intensity vs. MP roll if the target is unwilling. For example, to affect an unwilling SIZ 13 target takes a minimum 5 Intensity spell (that overcomes the target's MP with its Intensity). The target's SIZ remains constant, regardless of the new form. Show Light of Truth, Revelation Ranged, Temporal, Active These spells act like their equivalent Detects, except that targets within range of the spell visibly glow with a soft light visible to all (including the targets). Without an appropriate Study it acts as Show Life. *** I removed Show Magic because it created a special case that I didn't like much, and because I didn't like it much (stick with Mystic Vision) but if other people like it, make it an option for casting without a Study, or separate into two separate spells (Show [Life, , ], and Show [Magic, ].*** Skin of Life Breathe Underwater, Miner's Blessing Touch, Temporal, Passive As per RQ III, except requires 1 Intensity/3 SIZ to function. Smother Choke, Strangulation, Wear Down Ranged, Passive, Temporal Divide the number of melee rounds between Fatigue rolls made by an affected character by the Intensity of the spell plus one (rounding up). Thus a Smother Intensity 1 would require a roll every three melee rounds (5/(1+1), a Smother Intensity 4 every round (5/4+1), and a Smother Intensity 9 two rolls per round (5/9+1). Tap Consume, Ruin, Sorcerer's Touch, Steal Life, Zzabur's Curse Touch, Temporal, Passive Hard Each Intensity permanently drains a point of the specified attribute and adds it to the caster's attribute for the duration of the spell. Since temporary POW is MP, each point of POW drained adds 1 MP to the caster for the duration of the spell. As per the normal stacking rules, only the highest Intensity spell will have effect - a a Tap STR 7 and a Tap STR 5 add only 7 STR to the caster. *** I don't really like this version of Tap that much, but maybe it will be improved when integrated with the Paul reilly et al. Second Soul system*** Teleport Escape, Gate, Return, Wizard Gate Ranged, Instant Each level of Intensity teleports 3 SIZ that the caster touches (or him or herself) to a specific previously enchanted area within range of the spell. If the caster has several areas within range, he or she can choose the one to which to teleport. Telepathy Silent Speech, Wizard Tongue Ranged, Temporal, Passive As per RQ III. Travel in Fly, Swim, Valkaro's Wings, Valkaro's Fins Ranged, Temporal, Active This spell moves 3 SIZ per Intensity through or on the appropriate medium at a base speed of 1 meter per round. Additional levels of Intensity can be used to add 1 meter per round of movement per Intensity. Travel in Water can add to the target's natural movement rate if he or she is swimming or running along the surface of the water. If the substance moved through is solid, an additional Intensity of AP/3 is required. ***While obviously this spell is mostly used as Fly or Swim, I rather liked the other option that are opened up with this new definition. I like some of the true oddities that are possible (sorcerous smiths who can also travel through Iron walls, or woodland magicians who can walk through the walls of huts or hide in trees. If anyone really doesn't like it, just specify that Travel in only affects substances with AP 0.*** Ward Blow Damage Resistance, Resist Damage, Wizard Armor, Turn Blow Ranged, Temporal, Passive Each Intensity of the spell adds one point of armor protection to the whole body or object, which acts as normal armor. Ward Magic Avert, Resist Magic, Spell Resistance, Turn Hex Ranged, Temporal, Passive As per RQ III Resist Magic. Ward Spirit Ghost Armor, Spirit Resistance, Turn Demon Ranged, Temporal, Passive As per RQ IV Spirit Screen. RITUAL SORCERY *** In contrast to the Sorcery draft (and Burtons ideas), which had very little use for the standard Enchant and Summon skills, I make extensive use of them, even more than the RQ3 rules. This is partly because I really like the idea of a unified ritual magic system, and partly because it seemed to work really well. In fact, I think that Enchant/Summon skills + studies works better than Enchant/Summon skill + Enchanting/Summoning spells. *** Some ritual spells involve special skills for that spell, but many use spells or studies whose usefulness is not confined to Ritual magic. Virtually all Ritual magic involves one of the common Ritual skills, Enchant, Summon, and Ceremony. There are other Ritual skills, but they are less useful. All Enchanting skills are limited to a maximum POW expenditure of the minimum of Enchant and any required skills, divided by 10 to any one enchantment. So to Enchant a 10 POW point item (such as +50% to a Hard spell) requires the caster to be 100% in the spell and 100% in Enchant. However, this is the limit on any single enchantment, and manipulation counted as a separate enchantment for this purpose. The total POW on all Enchantments is Enchant divided by 5. So with 100% enchant, you could make an item that was +50% to a Hard spell and also +3 to Intensity and +2 to range. *** I will have to think about exactly Multispell works in with this *** Restrictions and extensions to the enchantment (such as restricted use, enchanting an area, and triggering actions add to the POW cost of enchanting the item, but do not count against the Enchant/5 limit. *** this is just my feeling, and fits in with my general philosophy that you should not restrict people to much if they want to do something that is about as powerful but more interesting. I think that it is actually a moot point most of the time, as Enchant/5 is probably far more than most people are interested in spending on an item. *** COMMON RITUAL LOW MAGIC Banishment (funeral ritual) Blessing (blessing ritual) Open Seas (as per GoG--Dormal) Worship Invisible God (as per GoG) *** All are Ceremonies. I would probably only classify Open Seas as true 'Low Magic', I would imagine that Banishment, Blessing, and Worship are usually presided over by someone with some ecclesiastical status. *** COMMON RITUAL HIGH MAGIC Apprentice Bonding As per RQ III. *** Probably a separate Easy spell. Or integrated with the Paul Reilly, et al. system *** Create Familiar As per RQ III, but use POW to create familiar stats (1 for 1) instead. *** Definately uses the Paul Reilly system. *** Divination [Various] Various divination spells, of varying effectiveness. Some rely on saints, and others rely on natural laws. *** I am not sure whether this should be a Ceremony spell, with a supplementary skill, or a new Ritual skill of its own. *** Enchant Enchant Iron, Silver, etc. Rune Metals are enchanted with the effects described in Elder Secrets. Substances other than Rune Metals generally gain few advantages above the unenchanted material, but that is only a generalisation. The one universal advantage is that creatures hit only by magic weapons may be affected by the enchanted material, though this is not relevant for all substances. There are many unusual substances that gain special abilities when enchanted this way. Some examples include certain elven plants, special crystals, and parts of certain rare animals. *** So rather than a special Enchant [substance] skill, your ability to enchant rune metals, etc. relies upon knowledge of the appropriate study, and Enchant skill. Suggests that studies of Rune metals may be closely guarded secrets. Perhaps the major ability of the Third Eye Blue is that they have Study of Iron is well known among them, as well as Enchant, and they can thus Enchant Iron? *** Homing Circle I would make this simply the combination of Teleport and Enchant skill. Enchant Spell +20% per point of POW to a specific Easy spell skill. +10%/point to a specific Medium spell skill (+5%/point if Hard, +3%/point if Very Hard). Limit of Enchanting is lowest of spell ability and Enchant skill. To make items that work in response to a trigger condition without requiring a casting action gets only this %age, so needs the chance to be raised to 100% to work all the time. However, items should not get Fumbles or automatic failures or criticals usually. There may be some ways to modify this chance for such items (doubling the %age for spells that are normally ranged where the item works only by touch is one option, that makes such items not prohibitively expensive). For spells involving studies, as usual the spell chance is the lower of the two skills, assuming that items must have the spell in them completely specified before creation. It is possible that there might be some way to create an item where the spell is not specified - such as a Shapechange to Gorp item, where the user must supply the first study, for example. Items that are activated by triggers rather than casting must have a well-defined source of magic points (preferably either the user, or some source built into the item). *** I feel that the way triggered items worked was a badly defined area in RQ3. On my reading of the rules, it seemed that you had the choice of creating an item that allowed you to cast the spell at you base %age, or that allowed you to cast it 100% of the time that a trigger condition was met, and one was just so much more sensible that the other (especially as triggers could be code words etc.). This should be adressed in the new rules (it was only a big problem with sorcery anyway). *** Spell Items created this way can be manipulated normally, at the standard cost of 1 point of POW per point of manipulation. Example - Jane the sorceress wishes to make a magic stick that causes people to become weak when she hits them with it. She has the spell Decrease at 80% and the Study of STR at 54%. She also has Enchant at 67%. The lowest of all these three skills is 54%, so that limits the amount of POW she can enchant the stick with to 5 points, which would enable her to enchant the stick with +50% to POW. She also wants to expend the extra POW point to make it triggered, which does not count against her 13 point (67/5) on maximum enchantment. This would give her a stick that instantly casts a Decrease STR when the trigger condition is met (striking someone hard) at 50%. This is not very reliable, but as she does not want her item to be able to cast the spell at range, and Decrease STR is a ranged spell, she gets to double the chance to 100%, so her item works every time (no automatic failures for triggered items, so even on a 96-00, so no point rolling). She also thinks that Decrease STR Intensity 1 is a bit of a waste of time, so the decides to add some intensity. The minimum of her intensity and spell skills is her Study of STR at 54%, so she can add up to 5 points of intensity. That is pretty good, and she does so. She has now accounted for 10 of her possible 13 points of enchantment (5 for cast chance, and 5 for intensity), plus 1 more. She has three remaining, and contemplates making the item power itself by adding a 3d10 points of magic point storage for another three points of POW (she knows how to make MP matrixes), but she decides that 11 points of POW is more than enough to spend at one time, and decides that the item will draw mp from the user. She creates her stick. She has a chance to create it of 67% (her Enchant skill) but she wisely decides that a bit of Ceemony is a good idea, and spends two weeks of fasting and meditating before finalising the enchantment. Her item is created sucessfully, and she now owns a stick that casts Decrease STR 6 (1+5) on whoever she strikes with it. She finds that two hits generally reduces most barbarian warriors to near helplessness, three always works, and one is enough to convince the average thug that they picked the wrong victim. The spell normally must overcome the targets magic points, but hers are higher than almost everyone she meets (except when she expends a lot, such as when she hits someone three times with her stick). It takes her a few years to recover from her massive POW expenditure, though. Her stick counts as a singlestick, so in addition it does 1d6 (and may have damage boost cast on it), and is wielded with light club. It also makes a nice walking stick. *** Perhaps there should be some sort of more complete system that lets you play around with the properties of spells in items? Lets you swap around properties like ranged and passive/active, and triggered and maybe even properties like 'requires a mp vs. mp roll' (eg items that do not require a resistance roll, but require you to physically strike them). Just a passing thought. It might make some logically reasonable things possible - shackles that dominate whoever wears them, for example. *** Summon Various summonings. All that is necessary is Study of and Summon skill, not a specialised summon spell. Only otherworld creatures can be summoned.  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12109; Tue, 9 Nov 93 11:57:46 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA20534; Tue, 9 Nov 93 12:57:15 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 12:57:30 EDT From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 12:56:50 EST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <20DE03C435E@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> I will have time to look at this later... In the meantime let me say that I have a Runic Sorcery article in the current issue of Free INT (thanks Joerg) and that if there is interest it could be posted here or on the Digest. I'd post it in English (although the German version, edited by Joerg, is better. Note that Runic Sorcery seems to be un-Greggish at the moment. - Paul Reilly  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA16020; Tue, 9 Nov 93 12:59:20 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA24244; Tue, 9 Nov 93 13:58:55 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 13:59:04 EDT From: "Loren J. Miller" To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: 09 Nov 1993 13:57:01 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <20EE77E102F@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> I haven't finished the full article yet, but like Paul I'll get to it. I'm glad to hear that you tried to stay consistent with the RQ3 sorcery rules, and not to break from them altogether, and also that you didn't tie the spells to the formal runes. IMO the runes in glorantha are an arbitrary symbol set and given sufficient insight and power you could just as well invent/find new runes to accomplish new things. Thus the list of runes is arbitrary and altogether too closely tied into glorantha for my taste. -- Loren  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA17126; Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:25:11 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA29831; Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:24:29 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 10 Nov 93 1:24:52 EDT From: rq4@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 21:11:42 MEZ Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <21A54C00B1E@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Kudos, Dave! A lot of sensible ideas, and a lot of problems addressed. And an awful lot, too much to be discussed in one posting. Multispell: Do you use the variant from the RQ3 Errata: the MP spent are for the most expensive spell plus 1 per additional spell (=point of Multispell), or the one from the rules (no benefit except shorter casting time)? For clarification: Is the maximum amount of manipulation spell%/5, as you said in the preface, or spell%/10, as in the example you gave? > *** I do not really know how to fit this into the Studies system. > Suggestions are welcome (I like the spells - a nice low power bladesharp > style spell, with mundane uses as well). One suggestion is that skill in > using the implement counts as the study (so Sword attack or > Craft:Blacksmithing counts as study for Bless Sword or Bless Blacksmiths > Hammer respectively), which has the effect of making skill VERY > important. Another option is just to leave this spell with multiple > version, or use the appropriate . *** The skill as the percent value for the study sounds fine, as long as the sorcerer has refined the skill as a study. Simply making this spell available to each and any skill the character may know makes it too powerful. How long are the training times for a new study? To convert the skill into a study the sorcerer would have to spend the same amount of time. Spell Matrix Enchantments: You characterized them as giving +n% to a spell for use of manipulation (plus conveying the knowledge of the spell, if not existant). How does this work with Multispell? Also does Multispell allow more than maximum manipulation for less well known spells? Does a 75% spell multispelled with a 55% spell allow 8 (15 in Dave Cake's) points of manipulation of the 55% spell? More when I have reread your long article more closely. -- Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA01040; Tue, 9 Nov 93 16:51:35 -0600 Return-Path: <100270.337@CompuServe.COM> Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA11426; Tue, 9 Nov 93 17:51:05 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 17:51:15 EDT From: Nick Brooke <100270.337@CompuServe.COM> To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: 09 Nov 93 17:43:28 EST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <212C5D32F28@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> I've not looked at this yet. But I've read the feedback. Loren said: > the list of runes is ... altogether too closely tied into > glorantha for my taste. RQ4 is meant to be a Gloranthan rules set. RQ4 Sorcery is meant to be Gloranthan Sorcery. It seems to make sense to tie the Sorcery rules closely to Glorantha. No? Or, put it another way. Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? I'll read the system one of these days. Hope it has a social context, and isn't *deliberately* generic... ==== Nick ====  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA01874; Tue, 9 Nov 93 17:04:14 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA12242; Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:03:50 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:03:54 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Sorcery System & Glorantha Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 15:03:22 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <212FC2A0DD9@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >I've not looked at this yet. But I've read the feedback. Same here. >Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products >to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? I know Wayne Shaw does. And for most of my RQ GMing, I've run a non-Gloranthan world. I do encourage the use of Glorantha as an example world. I'd like to see rules that aren't intimately tied to Glorantha, however. For one thing, Glorantha itself varies widely. RQ3's "pennies" in some ways make more sense than RQ2's Lunars (even tho it was stated that other lands used different coins). To restate: I prefer generic rules with a concrete example. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA04554; Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:05:20 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA15509; Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:05:01 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:05:04 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Character Levels Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 16:04:36 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <214012C5B65@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> One of the things RQ3 appeared to address was super characters, with skills above 100%. RQ4 seems to be concerned with these characters, too. I think this doesn't much matter. I don't think I've seen a character in a campaign I've GMed or played in above 110%. Are these characters common? Does addressing the game to such levels skew things for the (presumably) more common cases of 50%-100% characters? David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA06073; Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:37:41 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA17020; Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:37:24 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:37:27 EDT From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: System v. Glorantha Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:35:32 CST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2148B91033B@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Nick Brooke: >> >> Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products >> >> to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? They work fairly well for Tekumel, but I've not played anywhere in Glorantha where I've felt that they would be appropriate. David Dunham: >> I do encourage the use of Glorantha as an example world. I'd like to see >> rules that aren't intimately tied to Glorantha, however. For one thing, >> Glorantha itself varies widely. RQ3's "pennies" in some ways make more >> sense than RQ2's Lunars (even tho it was stated that other lands used >> different coins). This is opening up the how many sorcery systems do we want debate. We probably need two, at least. We need one that is compatible with RQ3, *if* RQ4 is to be compatible with RQ3 scenarios. We also need one that feels like it belongs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA07609; Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:22:20 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA19031; Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:21:35 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:21:56 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: System v. Glorantha Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 17:21:14 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <21548143309@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >> Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products >> to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? > >They work fairly well for Tekumel, but I've not played anywhere in >Glorantha where I've felt that they would be appropriate. I've played in RQ/Tekumel myself. >This is opening up the how many sorcery systems do we want debate. >We probably need two, at least. We need one that is compatible with RQ3, >*if* RQ4 is to be compatible with RQ3 scenarios. We also need one that >feels like it belongs. Please, let's have only one system that calls itself Sorcery. (I've never felt that RQ3 sorcery doesn't belong -- there are plenty of references to it in Gloranthan works [most notably Gods of Glorantha], after all.) David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA08598; Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:43:22 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA19852; Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:42:59 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:43:06 EDT From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: System v. Glorantha Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:41:14 CST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <215A38F7BBC@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >> From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) >> >> (I've never felt that RQ3 sorcery doesn't belong -- there are plenty of >> references to it in Gloranthan works [most notably Gods of Glorantha], >> after all.) Clarification of my original post: It's not "Sorcery" which doesn't belong. I conceded that point long ago. It's "RQ3 Sorcery" which doesn't feel like it belongs, though it may be needed for compatibility. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA10787; Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:45:32 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA22205; Tue, 9 Nov 93 21:45:10 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 21:45:19 EDT From: R1VOLZ@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 21:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <216ACB572D4@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Nick writes: >Or, put it another way. Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products >to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? I would like to see more generic supplements, myself. I like Glorantha, but its intensly mythic atmosphere and scope would not make it appropriate for play around here. It is a great source for examples of how to play with the RQ rules, though. Roland Volz +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Roland M. Volz | "What a terrible thing it is to lose | | (R1VOLZ@VAXA.STEVENS-TECH.EDU) | one's mind!" -- Dan Quayle, V.P. | +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA11401; Tue, 9 Nov 93 21:00:19 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA22733; Tue, 9 Nov 93 21:59:55 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 22:00:01 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 18:59:24 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <216EC0F451D@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> I like the Spell/5 vs Manipulation/10 distinction (/10 seemed weird in the RQ4 proposal). > Multispell is a Hard Magic skill, and can only be learned by a >character with a +10 or greater Magic bonus. This seems out of line with RQ in general. Anyone can learn any skill. The limit should be cultural. >CASTING TIME IN STRIKE RANKS (SR) > In melee, a sorcery spell cast goes off at: 3 SR (preparation time) + >the >sorcerer's DEX SR + the total MP used in SR. Why have the arbitrary 3 SR delay? >Cast I didn't see any other -related spells, which means there's no need for a Study. Or are the <> in error? All of the Pendragon traits are potential : "These are not the droids you're looking for" = Cast Trusting. I couldn't find any mention of what Studies _do_ (except for Summon). You say they're skills. Is that skill rolled? Is it a limit? If I have Study of Humans 65%, how do I cast Dominate Human? Do I learn a generic Dominate spell? David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA19795; Wed, 10 Nov 93 02:56:11 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA02292; Wed, 10 Nov 93 03:55:25 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 10 Nov 93 3:55:30 EDT From: Brian Jackson To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: RQ4 Playtesting Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 8:54:12 WET Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <21CD9977029@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Can anyone tell me how I can obtain a playtest copy of RQ4. - Brian Jackson.  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA22219; Thu, 11 Nov 93 19:48:22 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA26627; Thu, 11 Nov 93 20:47:37 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Thu, 11 Nov 93 20:48:07 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:54:14 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <245B95A439F@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Nick Brooke <100270.337@CompuServe.COM> writes: > I've not looked at this yet. But I've read the feedback. > > Loren said: > > > the list of runes is ... altogether too closely tied into > > glorantha for my taste. > > RQ4 is meant to be a Gloranthan rules set. RQ4 Sorcery is meant to be > Gloranthan Sorcery. It seems to make sense to tie the Sorcery rules > closely to Glorantha. No? > > Or, put it another way. Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products > to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? > I'll answer the question I think you're really asking, rather than the one you asked. I would prefer generic RQ product to the Gloranthan ones IF THEY WERE WRITTEN WITH THE SAME CARE. I don't run Glorantha, don't plan to run Glorantha, and have no interest in running Glorantha. The problem with the Generic RQ3 products was not that they were generic, but that they were, for the most part, poorly done. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA22233; Thu, 11 Nov 93 19:48:48 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA26681; Thu, 11 Nov 93 20:48:28 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Thu, 11 Nov 93 20:48:33 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Sorcery System & Glorantha Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:57:59 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <245BC3D7804@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> David Dunham (via RadioMail) writes: > I know Wayne Shaw does. And for most of my RQ GMing, I've run a > non-Gloranthan world. Not exactly. But see my direct response to the question for details. > > I do encourage the use of Glorantha as an example world. I'd like to see > rules that aren't intimately tied to Glorantha, however. For one thing, > Glorantha itself varies widely. RQ3's "pennies" in some ways make more > sense than RQ2's Lunars (even tho it was stated that other lands used > different coins). > > To restate: I prefer generic rules with a concrete example. > Well said. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA23862; Wed, 10 Nov 93 07:29:50 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA10453; Wed, 10 Nov 93 08:29:10 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 10 Nov 93 8:29:33 EDT From: rq4@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Initiates learning Spirit Magic Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:12:52 MEZ Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <22169A76BB1@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> One section of the rules which needs a major rewrite in the RQ3 rules for RQ4 is the section about initiates and lay mambers. After Sandy admitted that lay membership wasn't intended to be dropped out of RQ3, it would have to be spelled out what lay membership and assopciate membership really mean, including a paragraph on duties/restrictions and benefits each. I didn't like the all-shamanistic aproach to spirit magic in the RQ3-rules. Why should my initiate read how to become a shaman if priesthood was the goal? Since initiation into a cult or pantheon seems to be the rule rather than the exception in Glorantha, I propose to rewrite this part of the rules to fit into the normal picture. Where do we start from? Magic Book p. 36f.: "Spellteaching 1 Point Ritual Spell (Summon), Nonstackable, Reusable Common Through the use of this ritual the priest or initiate can summon a cult spell spirit from which a spirit spell can be learned. This ritual must be undertaken within a temple or other holy place, and the recipient of the ritual must be present for the ritual's entire duration. Other than the need for this special ritual, the process of learning a cult spirit spell is the same as os described in the Learning Spells section of the Spirit Magic chapter." I'm not at all satisfied by this description. The only other occurances of spirit magic in the divine magic chapter are under "Benefits" for initiates and priests and under temple size: p.25: "Finally, every fifth year, each initiate is entitled to learn for free one point of spirit magic acceptable to the religion. The spells to be learned must be available at the particular temple." How does the temple teach exactly one point of spirit magic, by the way? p.27: "Each year he [the priest] also gains a free one-point increase in spirit magic significant to that religion." p.29: References to availability of spirit magic only under "Major Temple" and "Great Temple". Clearly a mistake: if minor temples don't teach spirit magic, where does one get them? This whole subject needs an intense rewrite, too. The only real information on temple spirit magic we find in GoG, p.18 and p.20 (buying spirit magic from associate cults). This leaves the Spirit Magic chapter. I did a translation of most of RuneQuest 3 rules into German on my own, before I knew that there existed another one (which finally made it into print in '91). Into this translation I grafted my version of how initiates are taught Spirit magic. I'll try to do the same with the English language rules. The following text has quotes from the RQ3 rules in "" and commentaries by me maked by : at the beginning of the line. Spirit Magic for Initiates The cults in RuneQuest transmit magic between the deities and their worshippers. The worshippers sacrifice Magic Points in the Worship services, which are transmitted to the deity by the ceremony. In return initiates and higher ranks may learn divine magic. Besides the powerful divine magic, which can be obtained only by sacrificing personal POW permanently, most cults offer also a certain set of spirit spells, which the worshippers can learn under the guidance of the priests. Usually a cult's spirit spells are taught to the own initiates and higher cult ranks, but lay members in good standing and associates are taught their spells, too. [RQ3 Magic Book p.16:] "Spirits are the source of spirit magic spells. In many casesthey literally are the spells, being both the matrix and the magic points needed to cast the magic. Spirit spells are learned from spirits which attack the student and which must be defeated in order for the student to gain knowledge of the spell. Only certain spirits can teach spells." This task is overseen by a priest or acolyte performing the Spellteaching ritual. Each temple or shrine has certain friendly spirits which can be summoned to teach their spell knowledge. The character learning the spell has to overcome the spell spirit to prove worthy of the knowledge and control of the spirit's magic. Only spell spirits (and certain exotic divine magics, e.g. Exchange Spells of Etyries, Gift Spell of Daka Fal) may teach spirit spells, but all kind of spirits may learn or use these spells. : I'd like to include the Spirit comunication mechanic from Vikings : Players Book, p.36 f. into certain parts of Gloranthan Spirit magic, : e.g. into the spirit cults portrayed in GoG under the entry of Horned : Man. In the guise of Disir, ancestors or other "angelic" beings of : importance to the cult, these may occur also in theistic cultures, e.g. : Dara Happan Yelmic culture (saintly ancestors) or Orlanthi religion : (hero cults). Something wrong about Humakt's Valkyries? Already small temples or shrines house a few spell spirits as followers of their deity, who teach their magic knowledge to priests and initiates of the cult. The larger temples can provide spirits which have conveniently low magic points to convey the spell knowledge, whereas smaller sites may have only more powerful spirits (which double as part of the temple defense), or may be unable to teach certain spells. An exception to the trend that the larger the temple, the higher the probability for availability of spirit spell, are spirit spells the cult gains from cult heroes, saints or local spirits. These are usually restricted to one temple or shrine, and the spell spirit may be exceptionally strong. : This is where spirit communication comes in. Cult Spirit Spells and Forbidden Spirit Spells To an initiate, spirit spells fall into three categories: Spells taught by the own cult, spirit spells not taught by the own cult, but in no way restricted, and spirit spells forbidden to initiates of the cult. Learning or using forbidden spirit magic is a breach of the restrictions of the cult and might be viewed as sacrilege. Less strict cults may be pacified by a penance of some sorts (not necessarily involving forgetting the knowledge of the spell), harsher cults might react with excommunication or loosing the spirits of retribution on the culprit. GOG Cults Book p.20: "Some cults forbid certain spells to their initiates. Associated cults never teach forbidden spells to such initiates. For instance, Chalana Arroy and Eiritha are associates of the Storm Bull, but Storm Khans never teach Fanaticism to members of those cults." Generally priests don't care where the initiates or lay members learn their spirit magic not provided by the cult. Nevertheless, the teaching or initiating priest may demand that supplicant "forget" spells learned from cults hostile to the priest's cult. Magic Book p.16: "Once learned, spirit spells are not forgotten unless voluntarily suppressed." The cost of learning a spirit magic spell varies with the temple and the standing of the recipient in the cult. GOG Cults Book p.18: "Spirit Magic: only certain spirit spells are taught by each cult. A qualified initiate receives a free point of cult spirit magic each five years. If he so desires, he can purchase additional spirit magic at the cost of 30 penies + 15 pennies per point of spell. A Bladesharp 3 would cost 30+45=75 pennies." GOG Cults Book p.20: "An initiate can usually purchase spirit magic both from his own cult and from all allied cults. Eiritha initiates can thus obtain spirit magic from temples of Aldrya, Dendara, Ernalda, Storm Bull, and Waha. Spirit spells purchased from allied cults cost 100 pennies + 50 pennies per point of spell. A Bladesharp 3 would cost 100+150=250 penies." The fee for teaching the spell is paid for the number of spell points the spirit has. If the spirit has more points than desired by the supplicant, he must either pay for all of it, or refrain. This is especially true for smaller temples with a limited range of spell spirits, and for characters who have learned almost their full INT worth of magic. Magic Book p.16: "To learn a spell, a character must engage in spirit combat with a [spell] spirit which knows the spell. The minimum POW of the spirit equals the point value of the spell." GOG Cults Book p.18 ("Spirit Spell Teaching in Religious Cults"): "A cult spell spirit is summoned by the Spellteaching divine magic. Its spell is specified by the priests before the ritual is performed. Cult spell spirits usually have a POW of 1d3 per point in their spell. Thus, a Fireblade spirit has a POW of 4d3." Magic Book p.16: [The teaching priest] "will give the learner the prepared object with the focus". "The combat procedure is described in the Introduction to Magic chapter." : I dislike such references, but to repeat the mechanic for spirit combat : would take up too much space needlessly. The spirit combat rules ought : to be included in a separate Spot Rules sheet included in the rules : book. Magic Book p.16: "If the student [supplicant] reduces the magic points of the spell spirit to zero (without losing all of his magic points in the process), he takes the knowledge of the spell from the spirit, impressing it upon his own mind. The spirit breaks off combat and returns to the spirit plain. If the spirit returns to the spirit plain free of any control, it then regains the spell." : There have been excellent models for a more animistic way of spirit : magic on this list, but for civilized (Dara Happan, Lunar, Fonritian) or : comparatively civilized Orlanthi culture initiates I prefer this model : for spirit magic. : Are these procedures designed to be used with the new spirit combat : rules from draft 2.0? If so, any initiate or shamanistic character ought : to gain previous experience in it. Otherwise he would have had : difficulties to learn the spell. : It must be detailed whether spells like Spirit Screen, Spirit Block or : Spirit Resistance may be used when learning a spirit spell. IMO they : mustn't, because the supplicant must be willing to communicate with the : (in all probability less then enthusiastic) spirit, which would break : off combat if it had to overcome additional obstacles. If there was a : spell which only enhances the spirit combat skill, that might arguably : be allowed. Creatures Book p.36: "Spell Spirits possess only INT and POW. Their INT is restricted: it may hold only one spirit magic spell and nothing else. It is not used for rational thought of any sort. Spell spirits have fixed INT equal to the points in their spell, and POW at least equal to their spell's points. Frequently, it has POW higher than this minium. A spell spirit may not initiate spirit combat. If it has sufficient magic points, it may cast its spell more than once. Spell spirits have an automatic 100% chance of casting their spell, no matter what their POW. Spell spirits match their magic points against those of their targets; figure normally the chances for an offensive spell's chance of success. If a spell spirit is engaged in [forced into] spirit combat and reduced to zero magic points, the victor may force the spirit to yield its spell to him. Thus, the spirit's conqueror learns a new spell. The spell spirit is left functionless and void, and, if released, will rapidly migrate back to the eternal source of its spell, where it will regain its magic. Thus recharged, it reenters the spirit plane. On the other hand, if the spirit reduces its attacker to zero magic points, it will possess him. The spirit is incapable of operating a body, so the possessed individual will be effectively comatose, incapable of eating, thinking or acting until the spirit is exporcised." : How much of this information needs to be included in the Spirit Magic : chapter? The last paragraph at least, IMO. GOG Cults Book p.18 ("Spirit Spell Teaching in Religious Cults"): "The spellteaching ritual also gives the priest command over the spirit he has summoned. After it arrives, the priest forces the spell spirit into combat with the supplicant. If the spirit wins, the priest commands it to leave the victim and return to the spirit plane." : That solves the problem for the initiate. Nevertheless, the usual method : needs to be mentioned, at least for shamanistic characters (e.g. : Hsunchen). For these, the Spirit Magic chapter could reain with little : changes. Magic Book p.16: "Limits to Spell Memorization" : Remains unchanged, doesn't it? Also for sorcery spells, does it? Magic Book p.16: "Spellcasting Ability A spirit magician has a percentilee chance of successfully casting each of his spells equal to his POW*5. The spirit magician suffers a 1 percentile cumulative penalty to his spellcasting ability for each point of ENC he carries." : Is the magic bonus added? Several supplements indicate so. "The spirit magician cannot raise his spellcasting skill except through increasing his POW characteristic." : I liked the Focussing skill proposed by Nick Brooke and others, although : I'd read it so that either the POW*5 or the Focussing skill is used. : This way only specialized spirit magicians or character low on POW after : successful DI receive its benefits. Oh, and no skill increase check for : Focussing, just like for ceremony etc. Magic Book p.16: "The Focus All spirit magic spells require a focus to be cast. A focus can take many forms, most commonly of those of trinkets or medaillons bearing an appropriate rune of power, or it might be a rock, a bone, a claw, etc. The focus serves as a reminder and token of the spell." : Spells granted by a temple will most probably have the runes of the : deity included in the focus, as well as other religiously significant : symbols. Magic Book p.17: "Only a Shaman can properly prepare a focus for use with a spell." : This statement is obviously wrong, and should read instead: Only the teacher of a spirit spell can properly prepare a focus ... : Replace "shaman" by something more suitable in the following text, too, : or state how additional foci for spells known may be aquired from a : temple. Sorry that I have quoted so much, but since the rules are spread over several books, I thought a collection and some regrouping would help. Opinions? -- Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA04889; Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:10:49 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA15769; Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:10:32 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 9 Nov 93 19:10:36 EDT From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: New Sorcery System Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 11:08:26 EST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <21418D2321D@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> All about Dave Cakes proposed sorcery system: Nick Brooke writes: >RQ4 is meant to be a Gloranthan rules set. RQ4 Sorcery is meant to be >Gloranthan Sorcery. It seems to make sense to tie the Sorcery rules >closely to Glorantha. No? David says he didn't make it runic because Greg doesn't like the runes much anymore. I think Dave is trying to make it Gloranthan, by going to our best source on the matter. Though his system isn't runic, all of his example are Gloranthan, which to me is good enough. After a quick read, the system appears to take some effort to remain close to the RQ3 system. The _total_ manipulation of a spell is based on Skill/5, but the most of a particular manipulation you can do is based on the particular manipulation/10 ie if you have a skill in a spell of 65, you can do 13 points of manipulation; if your Duration skill is 70, you can make 7 of those points increased duration. The duration table is the same as RQ3, so 7 duration is 1280 minutes or 21 hours. I like this idea. It gives sorcerers similar powers to RQ3, but only to mages with very high (~100%+ skill) manipulation skills. (Note to David: though you write in the text that manipulation is skill/5, your example for Neutralize Magic is based on skill/10) A few more comments: in the spell list there seem to be a lot more studies than listed at the top. I would list the various Emotions, Life (If venom is Remove Life, and Healing is Regain Life, then what should regenerate be? Could Palsy be neutralize life?), Magic (obviously). I think a list of what spells there are would be nice. I think there is some duplication. Apart from that, I think this is the best complete alternative Sorcery write-up I've seen (I've never seen a complete version of Paul's system though: has one ever been posted?) Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA07547; Wed, 10 Nov 93 12:11:25 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA27496; Wed, 10 Nov 93 13:10:58 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 10 Nov 93 13:11:10 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Initiates learning Spirit Magic Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 10:10:47 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2261C422B07@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Joerg, it's going to take more careful reading to see what you're really proposing changing here (unless it's all just minor cleaning up of the existing rules). >Magic Book p.16: >"Spellcasting Ability >A spirit magician has a percentilee chance of successfully casting each of >his spells equal to his POW*5. The spirit magician suffers a 1 percentile >cumulative penalty to his spellcasting ability for each point of ENC he >carries." >: Is the magic bonus added? Several supplements indicate so. Yes. It's in the errata: "A spirit magician has a percentile chance of successfully casting non-ritual spells equal to his POWx5, plus his Magic skill category bonus." David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA14673; Thu, 11 Nov 93 02:45:40 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA07122; Thu, 11 Nov 93 03:44:13 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Thu, 11 Nov 93 3:44:16 EDT From: rq4@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Initiates learning Spirit Magic Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 23:38:18 MEZ Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <234AA517F9D@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> David Dunham writes: > Joerg, it's going to take more careful reading to see what you're really > proposing changing here (unless it's all just minor cleaning up of the > existing rules). Most of all I was fed up with the representation (which made my life as a newcomer quite hard, several years ago). It's an attempt to clarify, and to point at problems that my arise with the rules changes in the draft. > Yes. It's in the errata: "A spirit magician has a percentile chance of > successfully casting non-ritual spells equal to his POWx5, plus his Magic > skill category bonus." That's how I play it. Again, I want to see that black on white in the forthcoming versions of the draft/rules. -- Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA14381; Thu, 11 Nov 93 02:24:29 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA06812; Thu, 11 Nov 93 03:23:55 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Thu, 11 Nov 93 3:24:09 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Initiates learning Spirit Magic Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 00:23:37 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <23453C16196@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >p.29: References to availability of spirit magic only under "Major Temple" >and "Great Temple". Clearly a mistake: if minor temples don't teach spirit >magic, where does one get them? This whole subject needs an intense >rewrite, too. The errata added the Spellteaching spell to minor temples; as originally printed, it was at least consistent. (Joerg, do you not have the errata? It's probably available electronically.) >: I'd like to include the Spirit comunication mechanic from Vikings >: Players Book, p.36 f. into certain parts of Gloranthan Spirit magic, >: e.g. into the spirit cults portrayed in GoG under the entry of Horned >: Man. In the guise of Disir, ancestors or other "angelic" beings of >: importance to the cult, these may occur also in theistic cultures, e.g. >: Dara Happan Yelmic culture (saintly ancestors) or Orlanthi religion >: (hero cults). Something wrong about Humakt's Valkyries? I'm not completely clear on this -- if I win 7 rounds _in a row_ I can learn Healing 7, or just any 7 rounds? >: It must be detailed whether spells like Spirit Screen, Spirit Block or >: Spirit Resistance may be used when learning a spirit spell. IMO they >: mustn't, because the supplicant must be willing to communicate with the >: (in all probability less then enthusiastic) spirit, which would break >: off combat if it had to overcome additional obstacles. If there was a >: spell which only enhances the spirit combat skill, that might arguably >: be allowed. We've always assumed they could be, if for no other reason than that (pre-GoG at least) priests had no way to save the initiate who succumbed to a spell spirit! (GoG changed Spellteaching, but I guess we never changed the way we ran this.) Your ruling makes sense, even if I'm not sure I like it. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA23794; Wed, 10 Nov 93 17:00:32 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA17887; Wed, 10 Nov 93 17:58:33 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 10 Nov 93 18:00:17 EDT From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Initiates learning Spirit Magic Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 9:57:03 EST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <22AE6F11AC7@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> This write-up looks generally good. I like the idea of a focussing skill as well. I'm still a fan of animistic spirit magic concepts, so the description of the spell spirit doesn't exactly thrill me, but it is what the book says. The rest of your write-up seems very sound. Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12190; Mon, 15 Nov 93 02:58:18 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA13881; Mon, 15 Nov 93 03:56:21 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 3:58:01 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 16:55:27 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <294E0B959EA@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > > RQ4 is meant to be a Gloranthan rules set. RQ4 Sorcery is meant to be > > Gloranthan Sorcery. It seems to make sense to tie the Sorcery rules > > closely to Glorantha. No? > > Speaking for my own modest effort, I tried to tie the sorcery rules to Glorantha, noting the importance of the ability to Enchant Iron and such things, without making it terminally Gloranthan - such as being entirely based on Runes. While I like the Runes, I wouldn't try and base a Viking magic set around the Futhark, nor a Kabbalistic magic system entirely around the Hebrew alphabet. It was my understanding that Greg is not keen on the Western magic being terribly rune based either. The only Gloranthan concept that is an integral part of my attempt at RQ4 sorcery is the 5 elements - and that doesn't take much to change. In fact, my version has the potential to have both very Gloranthan parts and be adaptable to non-Gloranthan settings, by changing the studies and minor skils rather than the core of the sorcery system, and this is the way I think it should be. Bring on the Chinese sorcerers with systems of studies based on the I-Ching or whatever if that is how your capaign runs. > > Or, put it another way. Does *anyone* prefer the "generic" RQ3 products > > to the Gloranthan ones? What should we be designing rules to encourage? > > > > I'll answer the question I think you're really asking, rather than the > one you asked. I would prefer generic RQ product to the Gloranthan ones > IF THEY WERE WRITTEN WITH THE SAME CARE. I don't run Glorantha, don't > plan to run Glorantha, and have no interest in running Glorantha. The > problem with the Generic RQ3 products was not that they were generic, but > that they were, for the most part, poorly done. > Hear Hear!! I thought that Vikings and Land of Ninja were fine products with some potential, and I mourn the fact that no RQ Earth products will be produced. But the problem with Griffon Island, Eldorad, etc. was that they displayed little imagination, and low standards. If there had been one Gateway product of the standard of Dorastor or Sun County, I would have bought it, even just to steal the plot and try and work it into Glorantha. > > ------------------------------ > shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow > The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327 >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12480; Mon, 15 Nov 93 03:25:06 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA14184; Mon, 15 Nov 93 04:24:44 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 4:24:49 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:23:55 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <29559BE2C8F@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > I like the Spell/5 vs Manipulation/10 distinction (/10 seemed weird in the > RQ4 proposal). > Good. I like it too. > > Multispell is a Hard Magic skill, and can only be learned by a > >character with a +10 or greater Magic bonus. > > This seems out of line with RQ in general. Anyone can learn any skill. The > limit should be cultural. > > >CASTING TIME IN STRIKE RANKS (SR) > > In melee, a sorcery spell cast goes off at: 3 SR (preparation time) + > >the > >sorcerer's DEX SR + the total MP used in SR. > > Why have the arbitrary 3 SR delay? > Both of these are hold overs from the RQ4 draft 1.0. I have no attachment to either of them. Personally, I agree with you on Multispell (lets drop it the restriction), and I see the logic of the casting time - the same principlke as drawn weapons - if you want to avoid the 3 sr delay, say 'I prepare spell' the round before. But should probably be elucidated a little] more if it is kept. > >Cast > > I didn't see any other -related spells, which means there's no > need for a Study. Or are the <> in error? > No, there is Detect [Life,], I think, a spell that acts as Detect Life if you do not have the appropriate study, and Detect if you do. The idea was to have a spell that allowed you to do Detect Enemies (malice or hate), and I liked the idea of being able to cast such completely combat useless but roleplaying superb spells as Detect Love and Detect Rage. In a later draft I am sure that I could come up with some more emotion based spells, I think that they add to the game. > All of the Pendragon traits are potential : "These are not the > droids you're looking for" = Cast Trusting. > Well, sounds god to me. Maybe even all the Pendragon Traits and Passions - hmm, Cast Loyalty, Detect Loyalty, Cast Laziness, etc. Nice. > I couldn't find any mention of what Studies _do_ (except for Summon). You > say they're skills. Is that skill rolled? Is it a limit? If I have Study of > Humans 65%, how do I cast Dominate Human? Do I learn a generic Dominate > spell? > They are skills, generally used as a limit to casting (like manipulations in RQ3 - you need to roll under the minimum of study & spell). I assumed that you had to learn a generic Dominate spell, but I am open to suggestions. Thanks for your comments. Cheers, Dave Cake > David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation > Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net > >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12518; Mon, 15 Nov 93 03:28:10 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA14198; Mon, 15 Nov 93 04:27:49 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 4:27:52 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: System v. Glorantha Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:26:58 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <295672F54F8@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > This is opening up the how many sorcery systems do we want debate. > We probably need two, at least. We need one that is compatible with RQ3, > *if* RQ4 is to be compatible with RQ3 scenarios. We also need one that > feels like it belongs. > Aargh! Please No! Two Sorcery systems? Why? Because you really, really hate RQ3 sorcery? Well, don't use it. But Why not just concentrate on improving the background (and some of the mechanics) till RQ3 Sorcery feels more Gloranthan. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12636; Mon, 15 Nov 93 03:37:09 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA14311; Mon, 15 Nov 93 04:36:49 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 4:36:53 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Character Levels Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:35:52 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2958D3A62CC@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > One of the things RQ3 appeared to address was super characters, with skills > above 100%. > Actually (having run an experimental high power campaign with PCs as tribal leaders) both RQ2 and RQ3 break down quite badly at high power. Loosely put, they become very boring, and many people who should be super powerful become a complete waste of time (eg runelords with v. high weapon skills but no weapon/strength enhancing magic - ouch, he hits me for 9 points again, it bounces of my armour/shield again). The biggest problem I found woth RuneLord combat in RQ2 was the Fanaticism arms race- when the opposing RL went Berserk or fanatic, there was very little reason for you not to (when he attacked at 165% you weren't parrying anyway, and you got a better chance to split attacks that way), and then you just hacked each other into bloody bits. But maybe that was just our local extremists talking. > RQ4 seems to be concerned with these characters, too. I think this doesn't > much matter. I don't think I've seen a character in a campaign I've GMed or > played in above 110%. > > Are these characters common? > Not really, but characters often get near enough for it to matter. More importantly, if one of my games carries on for long enough that the PCs get to that level, I want the mechanics to keep up. > Does addressing the game to such levels skew things for the (presumably) > more common cases of 50%-100% characters? > Hopefully not. I personally think that the only real problem with the combat special options rules is that they are too hard to get for the 50-75% characters, and only become a good deal when your combat abilities are beyond the level of trainability. > David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation > Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net > >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA12717; Mon, 15 Nov 93 03:46:58 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA14389; Mon, 15 Nov 93 04:46:33 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 4:46:36 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:45:51 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <295B77E0609@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > Kudos, Dave! > Thanks. > A lot of sensible ideas, and a lot of problems addressed. And an awful > lot, too much to be discussed in one posting. > > Multispell: Do you use the variant from the RQ3 Errata: the MP spent are > for the most expensive spell plus 1 per additional spell (=point of > Multispell), or the one from the rules (no benefit except shorter casting > time)? > I use the variant from the errata - the simple reason - I like sorcerers to be able to create interesting (not necessarily powerful) effects. > For clarification: > Is the maximum amount of manipulation spell%/5, as you said in the > preface, or spell%/10, as in the example you gave? > Whops, the example was a hold over from the RQ4 draft 1.0 that I forgot to change. [bit about Bless [tool] deleted, mostly because I couldn't think of anything intelligent to say about it. What you said sounded OK to me.] > > Spell Matrix Enchantments: > > You characterized them as giving +n% to a spell for use of manipulation > (plus conveying the knowledge of the spell, if not existant). How does > this work with Multispell? > Errk. I didn't think about that. I would tend to go for Multispells counting as a single spell for this purpose - ie +n% to chance to cast ALL spells, and no way to cast them separately. > Also does Multispell allow more than maximum manipulation for less well > known spells? Hmm. I don't know. I guess that it shouldn't. Wether this means that maximum manipulation for all spells is limited by the lowest, or wether the badly known spells just get less benefit from the manipulation I don't know. > Does a 75% spell multispelled with a 55% spell allow 8 (15 in Dave Cake's) > points of manipulation of the 55% spell? > As I said, I don't think so. But if you multispell a 75% spell with a 55%, is the manipulation of the 75% spell limited to 5(11) points of manipulation, or can it be cast at 8(15) even though the 55% spell is limited to 5(11). > > More when I have reread your long article more closely. > -- > Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA02985; Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:30:20 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA15724; Mon, 15 Nov 93 14:29:40 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 15 Nov 93 14:29:57 EDT From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: System v. Glorantha Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:28:00 CST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <29F6F886A97@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >> From: David Cake >> Subject: Re: System v. Glorantha >> >> Aargh! Please No! >> Two Sorcery systems? Why? Because you really, really hate RQ3 sorcery? >> Well, don't use it. But Why not just concentrate on improving the background >> (and some of the mechanics) till RQ3 Sorcery feels more Gloranthan. Maybe you misunderstood my reasoning. I like the RQ3 Sorcery, but not for Glorantha. It works quite well for Tekumel, after tuning the spell list. It does not feel like it meshes with my concept of Glorantha. I suggest keeping it only for compatibility. I am in favor of a magic system for the Kralorelans, and magic system for Western sorcerors, a system for the Lunars, ..., though perhaps all tied together with some shared concept, like the sorceror's ___ ( I forget ) which was proposed as an analog of the fetch. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA11399; Tue, 16 Nov 93 09:42:22 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA06919; Tue, 16 Nov 93 10:41:25 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 16 Nov 93 10:42:05 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 00:26:27 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2B3A1BA44C7@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> David Cake writes: > Hear Hear!! I thought that Vikings and Land of Ninja were fine products with > some potential, and I mourn the fact that no RQ Earth products will be produc > But the problem with Griffon Island, Eldorad, etc. was that they displayed > little imagination, and low standards. I agree with most of this, except for Griffin Island. This was a perfectly decent product, and the one truly generic one done of the game. Of course, it started it's life as a Gloranthan product in the pre-RQ3 days, which may have had something to do with this. > If there had been one Gateway product of the standard of Dorastor or > Sun County, I would have bought it, even just to steal the plot and try and > work it into Glorantha. As I said, Griffin Island was a quite respectable product. But the other, non-sourcebook products were not worth the paper they were printed on. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA21568; Tue, 16 Nov 93 12:25:20 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA18428; Tue, 16 Nov 93 13:24:53 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 16 Nov 93 13:25:01 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: scenarios Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:24:32 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2B65BAC166F@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) >David Cake writes: >> But the problem with Griffon Island, Eldorad, etc. was that they displayed >> little imagination, and low standards. > >I agree with most of this, except for Griffin Island. This was a >perfectly decent product, and the one truly generic one done of the game. Wayne, this is terrible, once again we're in agreement! I think what made Griffin Island look bad was the fact that Griffin Mountain is the best roleplaying supplement ever produced. Actually, I could quibble that it's truly generic -- I was forced to add orcs to my campaign because if I didn't, I wouldn't have been able to use a single Griffin Island handout. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA01874; Wed, 17 Nov 93 06:18:52 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA01601; Wed, 17 Nov 93 07:17:19 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 17 Nov 93 7:18:32 EDT From: Brian Jackson To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Yet Another Sorcery System (very long) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 9:06:22 WET Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2C83BA7737E@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Hello, I have finally gotten round to reading your sorcery system, and generally speaking I liked it. However, I would like to make some suggestions. > Dominate > Beguile, Charm, Fascination, Puppet > Ranged, Temporal, Active (until commanded, then Passive) > Hard > Spell description as per RQ III. > *** As noted, Intensity/10 limit makes this much less useful (it is > difficult to even Dominate a Pow 10 simple spirit). However, the study > system probably means spells like Dominate Human are far more common. *** To make this spell more powerful, you could say that the caster can keep trying to overcome the targets MP once a round until the duration expires, or the target moves out of range. Of course the spell would be active through out this period. The target should also get an INT X 1 roll to realise what is happening. > Resist Poison > Antidote, Antivenin, Neutralize Venom, Ward Snakebite > Touch, Temporal, Passive > Each Intensity of the spell negates 3 HP of poison damage. The spell > decreases by one Intensity for every 3 HP of poison damage so negated. The > spell has no effect on poison damage suffered before casting the spell. > One can cast it before exposure to the poison, or after exposure but > before the damage has occurred. Or it could increase your CON to resist the poison, maybe 2pts per instensity, if cast before exposure. > Tap > Consume, Ruin, Sorcerer's Touch, Steal Life, Zzabur's Curse > Touch, Temporal, Passive > Hard > Each Intensity permanently drains a point of the specified attribute and > adds it to the caster's attribute for the duration of the spell. Since > temporary POW is MP, each point of POW drained adds 1 MP to the caster for > the duration of the spell. As per the normal stacking rules, only the > highest Intensity spell will have effect - a a Tap STR 7 and a Tap STR 5 > add only 7 STR to the caster. > *** I don't really like this version of Tap that much, but maybe it will > be improved when integrated with the Paul reilly et al. Second Soul > system*** I'm not to sure about this one either. You could limit the spell by using the TAP table in the magic book, ei Tapping 2pts of STR gives the caster 1pt of STR,etc. Has Paul Reilly written his Second Soul system yet, and if so, could you tell me what its about (or if you still have a copy mail it me). > Ward Blow > Damage Resistance, Resist Damage, Wizard Armor, Turn Blow > Ranged, Temporal, Passive > Each Intensity of the spell adds one point of armor protection to the > whole body or object, which acts as normal armor. Alot better than the old Damage Resistance. > Ward Spirit > Ghost Armor, Spirit Resistance, Turn Demon Ranged, Temporal, Passive > As per RQ IV Spirit Screen. I haven't finished reading the RQ4 draft yet, but I don't remember seeing a Spirit Screen spell there. > RITUAL SORCERY > > *** In contrast to the Sorcery draft (and Burtons ideas), which had very little use for the > standard Enchant and Summon skills, I make extensive use of them, even > more than the RQ3 rules. This is partly because I really like the idea of > a unified ritual magic system, and partly because it seemed to work > really well. In fact, I think that Enchant/Summon skills + studies works > better than Enchant/Summon skill + Enchanting/Summoning spells. *** I like the RQ3 ritual magic as well, although it could do with a few minor tweeks. Which Sorcery draft are you talking about, and could you please mail me a copy if you have it. > Create Familiar > As per RQ III, but use POW to create familiar stats (1 for 1) instead. > *** Definately uses the Paul Reilly system. *** Definately better than than the RQ3 version, as it makes animal familiars more common (there was no way I was going to sacrifice some of my INT just to get a familiar with an INT of 6). [Rest of ritual stuff deleted] Look forward to hearing from you, -Brian Jackson.  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA02126; Wed, 17 Nov 93 06:40:37 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA01923; Wed, 17 Nov 93 07:39:20 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 17 Nov 93 7:40:20 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: scenarios Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 03:26:52 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2C89AAB39CD@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> David Dunham (via RadioMail) writes: > > Wayne, this is terrible, once again we're in agreement! David, far as I can tell, ALL the disagreements we have had can be traced back to the fact that we want vastly different levels of detailing in our game mechanics. Given that game mechanics are the primary topic of this list, that's going to tend to make for a lot of disagreements between us. But I recall seeing any number of things you've said in the past in other venues that I agreed with. You also wrote one of the very few pre-done adventures I've ever used (at least I beleive it's you; the one that appeared in the Space Gamer many a moon ago and was recently redone for GURPS in GURPS Fantasy Adventures.) > > I think what made Griffin Island look bad was the fact that Griffin > Mountain is the best roleplaying supplement ever produced. Possibly. I'd never owned a copy of the old version, so it didn't suffer by comparison to me. > > Actually, I could quibble that it's truly generic -- I was forced to add > orcs to my campaign because if I didn't, I wouldn't have been able to use a > single Griffin Island handout. I gather the technique of telling your players to substitute some appropriate race in your campaign (trolls, say...I think in the original Griffin Mountain set-up they were actually filling most of the roles the orcs did) wouldn' t suffice? But I do get your point. I'm just not sure that sort of thing is avoidable without making the product incredibly clumsy to use. But it was generic in the sense it made very little assumptions about what the world outside the Island was like. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA16186; Wed, 17 Nov 93 11:51:27 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA20028; Wed, 17 Nov 93 12:50:30 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 17 Nov 93 12:51:06 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: scenarios Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:50:11 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <2CDCA4D1B81@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Wayne said, >David, far as I can tell, ALL the disagreements we have had can be traced >back to the fact that we want vastly different levels of detailing in our >game mechanics. Given that game mechanics are the primary topic of this >list, that's going to tend to make for a lot of disagreements between us. True. >You also wrote one of the very few pre-done >adventures I've ever used (at least I beleive it's you; the one that >appeared in the Space Gamer many a moon ago and was recently redone for >GURPS in GURPS Fantasy Adventures.) Thanks, tho the folks at Fantasy Gamer get some of the credit, since they made significant changes to my original (which was a RQ adventure when I submitted it). The GURPS version has more new material which in my opinion doesn't fit. Even "The Lost Inheritance" isn't a very good example of a generic scenario, however, since it can only be set it campaigns that concede the existence of pocket universes. It's not clear that it would fit in Glorantha. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA14247; Thu, 18 Nov 93 21:53:12 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA27663; Thu, 18 Nov 93 22:52:12 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Thu, 18 Nov 93 22:52:46 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Griffon Island Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:51:07 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <564F850F7@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > David Cake writes: > > > Hear Hear!! I thought that Vikings and Land of Ninja were fine products with > > some potential, and I mourn the fact that no RQ Earth products will be produc > > But the problem with Griffon Island, Eldorad, etc. was that they displayed > > little imagination, and low standards. > > I agree with most of this, except for Griffin Island. This was a > perfectly decent product, and the one truly generic one done of the game. > Of course, it started it's life as a Gloranthan product in the pre-RQ3 > days, which may have had something to do with this. > > > If there had been one Gateway product of the standard of Dorastor or > > Sun County, I would have bought it, even just to steal the plot and try and > > work it into Glorantha. > > As I said, Griffin Island was a quite respectable product. But the > other, non-sourcebook products were not worth the paper they were printed > on. > My comments about Griffon Island apply only to the changes between Island and Mountain - it was non-Gloranthised, filled with macho super sorcerers and generic orc bad guys, and the delicate balance of power of the original changed to something much simpler. It was also not what I would call generic - orcs, religions, etc. By generic I mean things that can fit into almost any campaign - ones that avoid large groupings of unusual non-human races, for example, and are not too precise about what religions are worshipped. Cheers Dave > > ------------------------------ > shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow > The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327 >  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA24781; Fri, 19 Nov 93 05:42:26 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA08294; Fri, 19 Nov 93 06:41:53 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 19 Nov 93 6:42:07 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Griffon Island Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 00:51:04 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: David Cake writes: > It was also not what I would call generic - orcs, religions, etc. > By generic I mean things that can fit into almost any campaign - ones that > avoid large groupings of unusual non-human races, for example, and are not to > precise about what religions are worshipped. > What's particularly unusual about the racial mix in GO? Sure, it's got orcs, but orcs are, after all, one of the standard races in the rules. The slarges are stranger, but then, the implication in the pack is that this may be the only place they are found. Avoiding that problem adds up to avoiding nonhumans altogether. As for the religions...the ones used were sufficiently generic (other than Redeye) that substituting the campaign storm and sun gods would probably rarely create any problem. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA02607; Fri, 19 Nov 93 19:21:04 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA28838; Fri, 19 Nov 93 20:20:22 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 19 Nov 93 20:20:37 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Griffon Island Date: Sat, 20 Nov 93 9:19:27 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <1ADD5E4909@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > David Cake writes: > > > It was also not what I would call generic - orcs, religions, etc. > > By generic I mean things that can fit into almost any campaign - ones that > > avoid large groupings of unusual non-human races, for example, and are not to > > precise about what religions are worshipped. > > > What's particularly unusual about the racial mix in GO? Sure, it's got > orcs, but orcs are, after all, one of the standard races in the rules. Well, just what I said - they can't fit into almost any campaign. For that matter, halflings and ducks are standard races in the rules, but that does not mean that they are going to fit into almost every campaign. If they are going to publish 'generic' adventures, that should mean things that are going to fit into most campaigns, not things that are going to fit into campaigns that allow anything. > The slarges are stranger, but then, the implication in the pack is that > this may be the only place they are found. Avoiding that problem adds up > to avoiding nonhumans altogether. Well, certainly not basing huge chunks of plot around them. I don't have a problem with the slarges, they are suposed to be unusual, but the orcs are a major force - I can't jst stick Griffon Island into my orc-less campaign. I want generic adventures in the sense of useful and adaptable. Most of the Gateway stuff seemed to be generic in the sense of being set in 'generic fantasy universe' rather than any particular one (you know, the universe with the hordes of orcs, the big dark lord, the wise wizard, the bunch of guys who are the only hope, the old wise king, his beautiful daughter, and all sort of European mediavel without the disease and starving peasants). In short, generic meaning 'undistinguished'. When this also means that it is less useful to most people who play RQ (the ones who aren't Gloranthan probably include a few RQ Earth types, and the remainder are probably people who have put real effort into creating their own universe), then what is the point. > > shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow > The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327 > Cheers Dave PS sorry to be so grumpy :-)  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA27098; Mon, 22 Nov 93 05:26:17 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA12251; Mon, 22 Nov 93 06:23:05 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 22 Nov 93 6:25:39 EDT From: shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Griffon Island Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 02:39:09 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <54EAFD5C20@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> David Cake writes: > Well, certainly not basing huge chunks of plot around them. I don't > have a problem with the slarges, they are suposed to be unusual, but the > orcs are a major force - I can't jst stick Griffon Island into my orc-less > campaign. I don't think this is altogether reasonable. Any sort of adventure that is not completely flavorless is going to have elements that need swapping in and out, and at least a few of them are bound to be major. I suspect trolls could be substituted for the orcs on GO and fullfill many of the smae functions (though you'd have to disconnect the chaos folks from them, which gets sort of problematical). Heck, on a somewhat Glorantha like world, you could use a tribe of unusually civilized broos, and they'd fit the mold fine. Basically, I think what I'm saying is that a setting as generic as you seem to be wanting would probably not be worth bothering with; it would be so colorless as to have few interesting features. Even an all human scenario can too easily make assumptions that are going to requires serious reworking. That's one reason I very rarely use predesigned settings/scenarios; but at least with something like GO, there's bound to be SOMETHING I can scarf in anything but the most baroque world settings. ------------------------------ shadow@qedbbs.com (Wayne Shaw) or qed!shadow The QED BBS -- (310)420-9327  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA05005; Mon, 22 Nov 93 10:14:15 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA28148; Mon, 22 Nov 93 11:13:34 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 22 Nov 93 11:13:53 EDT From: "Loren J. Miller" To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Griffon Island Date: 22 Nov 1993 11:11:25 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <59C2722D1E@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> If you really want to use Griffon Island in a campaign without orcs then just state that there is a tribe of degenerate humans whom everybody calls orcs. They aren't really a separate race. They just appear that way. There's your quick fix. Now go out and use that scenario! :-) whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA19837; Tue, 23 Nov 93 03:28:40 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA16627; Tue, 23 Nov 93 04:27:54 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Tue, 23 Nov 93 4:28:19 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: sorcery systems Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 17:27:08 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <6B00CF446C@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> As I seem to be in the business of designing sorcery systems (there was enough interest in my writeup that I should move it beyond rough draft) I would be interested to see what others have done. I would be interested in seeing your Rune sorcery system, but I would be even more interested in seeing the draft of your 'sorcerous fetch' system that I believe you did for Oliver. Would it be possible to have copies of either of these? Thanks in advance Dave Cake  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA07533; Tue, 23 Nov 93 23:34:25 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA16603; Wed, 24 Nov 93 00:33:38 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 24 Nov 93 0:34:02 EDT From: David Cake To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Griffon Island Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 13:32:50 WST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <7F1A146563@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> > > If you really want to use Griffon Island in a campaign without orcs > then just state that there is a tribe of degenerate humans whom > everybody calls orcs. They aren't really a separate race. They just > appear that way. There's your quick fix. > Well actually my quick fix is to ignore the orcs entirely (replacing them with references to Lunars or trolls as appropriate), and run Griffon Mountain, only with one or two new characters - and HvE is a lot tougher, now being a graduate of the Lunar college of Magic. Needless to say, I place the whole thing in Balazar (now a Blank Land). I find that this is a simple fix that nicely integrates the whole thing into Glorantha :-) > Now go out and use that scenario! > Well, eventually. > :-) > > whoah, > +++++++++++++++++++++++23 > Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu > "Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite > Dave Cake  0,, *** EOOH *** Received: from NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU by deepthought.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.3/relay) with SMTP id AA10533; Wed, 24 Nov 93 01:51:32 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from MKT46.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA19708; Wed, 24 Nov 93 02:51:01 -0500 Received: from WMKT/MAILQUEUE by marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Mercury 1.1); Wed, 24 Nov 93 2:51:08 EDT From: David Dunham (via RadioMail) To: "RQ4 Playtest Discussion" Subject: Re: Griffin Island Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 23:50:43 PST Reply-To: rq-playtest@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Sender: Listserv@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.1. Message-Id: <8163E232A3@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> >Well actually my quick fix is to ignore the orcs entirely (replacing them with >references to Lunars or trolls as appropriate), and run Griffon Mountain, only >with one or two new characters - and HvE is a lot tougher, now being a graduate >of the Lunar college of Magic. Needless to say, I place the whole thing in >Balazar (now a Blank Land). I find that this is a simple fix that nicely >integrates the whole thing into Glorantha :-) This unfortunately ignores about 1/3 the product (map and handouts)... Still, it does show that the important thing in a generic product is the relationships between people and cultures -- you still have the 3 citadels, the neolithics and the bronze agers, etc. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams