[Runequest] Sorcerous vampire vs. Vivamort vampire

David Cake dave at difference.com.au
Sat Sep 22 19:10:25 EST 2012


On 22/09/2012, at 4:01 PM, Marko Perälä wrote:

> RQ3/Glorantha question about vampires. I happened to notice that there seems to be differences between several vampires in various books versus the writeup in the creatures book.

	It is important to note that the Creatures book is supposed to be 'non-Gloranthan', and that isn't always a clear split - when in doubt, assume the Gloranthan sources are truer. The creatures book represents a generic vampire, Gloranthan vampires have some subtle differences. A good example is the broos in the Creatures book don't have chaotic features, but Gloranthan ones usually do. 

> 1. Vivamort cult information and that ancient vampire in Sun County-book suggest that a Vivamort vampire can steal Rune magic. This is however not mentioned in creatures book about vampires.

	Yep. 
	There is a pretty big argument about this over on the Moon Design groups, with some people saying this is just a game balance hack from the RQ2 era, and should be discarded in the modern Gloranthan era, but I'm on the other side of the argument. Of course, your game, you can make up your own mind. 
	The fact that it isn't mentioned in the creatures book is neither here nor there, though. 

> 2. Several sources on Vivamorti claim that they are chaotic creatures, but vampires in Creatures-book are described only as undead - not as chaotics.

	Chaos is really a Gloranthan concept (other game universes have the concept of Chaos, but it isn't the same Chaos - Moorcock Chaos from the Elric/Stormbringer games, for instance, is quite different). So nothing in the Creatures book is described as Chaotic because some game settings (like Runequest Earth) don't have it. 
	And vampires are Chaotic in Glorantha. This doesn't really change anything (vampires don't generally have chaos features, and generally aren't eligible to join any other chaotic cults and have no reason to do so) except for things like Sense Chaos. 
	Some undead are Chaotic (vampires, ghouls, Urain draugr, etc) and some aren't (Zorak Zoran zombies and mummies, for example). 

> 3. Old Vivamort cult writeup mentions several additional weaknesses vampires have that don't exist in Creatures book (Styx curse, Dendara's curse).

	Yep. I'd assume this stuff is all true for Gloranthan vampires. 

> Given these differences it got me wondering. Are these differences due to RQ creatures being generalised versions that had to be modified to be suitable for Non-Gloranthan worlds and vampires as written don't exist in Glorantha or are the vampires in Creatures-book the kind of vampire created with sorcery spell Create vampire?
	
	In the general case, yes. The Creatures book is a generalised non-Gloranthan book. 

	On the specifics of vampires, though, I think just because it is sorcerous, doesn't mean it isn't chaotic. IMG, the vampires created by the sorcery spell are Chaotic, and that is what Chaos looks like in a sorcerous culture -- any sorcerer can learn a tempting spell with (possibly not very obvious) Chaotic overtones, and suddenly there is chaos where there was none before. And in RQ3, due to game mechanics, all vampiric magic (well, that they haven't stolen from others, if you allow that) is sorcerous anyway. 
	So, basically, IMG the vampires created by the Create Vampire ritual are the same as Vivamort cult, and knowledge of the ritual is taught by the cult. 
	I also played that Vivamort sorcerers have the ability, in ritual, to substitute POW drained unwillingly from others for POW sacrificed by the sorcerer, so vampires can cast spells like Create Vampire, Create Basilisk, etc. So, they steal POW from an unwilling sacrifice to turn another person into a vampire. 
	Or it might be that vampires are able to turn others into vampires by some other means, whatever it might be - some traditional 'sucky sucky' thing or whatever. Vampires are chaotic after all, they needn't all be the same. 
	
> I personally lean towards the latter option - like there's a difference between Creatures-book zombies and Zorak Zoran's INT 0 zombies, but that's just my personal estimate. Does anyone have more solid information on this?
	
	In general, you are right - there is a difference between Creature book zombies and Zorak Zoran zombies, and there are subtle differences (or not so subtle) between creature book descriptions and the Gloranthan version
	I tend to believe that there really isn't any difference between Sorcerous vampires and Vivamort in the case of vampires, but some sorcerers might THINK there is. 

	The single most up to date information on vampires and Vivamort in Glorantha is in Lords of Terror - but unfortunately, there isn't much of it. It confirms that the Vivamort cult in RQ3 was supposed to be purely sorcerous, and that they have magics to create and control lesser undead (as they did in RQ2), and have access to the Ecstatic Communion power (again, as they did in RQ2), presumably all now sorcerous abilities. 
	Cheers
		David




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