[Runequest] [SPAM] Re: ***SPAM*** Armour weight/enc

Sven Lugar vikingjarl at gmail.com
Mon Nov 2 14:37:02 EST 2009


I made the mistake one time of not washing my gambeson (under-padding) 
for a year. The salt from my sweat so crystallized that it would stand 
up rigidly by itself.
skal,
Sven

Andrew Larsen wrote:
> There are a number of examples from the 14th and 15th centuries of men 
> who chose to fight either without a helmet or with their faceplace 
> open to improve air circulation and who died because of the choice.  
> So there was some awareness of this problem even at the time.
>
> Andrew E. Larsen
> On Nov 1, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Sven Lugar wrote:
>
>> Exactly, Steve! Which is why exceptions get talked about & remembered 
>> because they are exceptions. I also know what peak physical condition 
>> it required. Not everybody becomes a SEAL, Recon, Green-weanie, etc. 
>> Just a small fraction of a percent.  Chris's re-enactor buddy can 
>> point to the rare exceptions but as I have experienced they are 
>> exceptions. Running in medieval armor is a killer as I can attest. I 
>> know the extremes of performance & even the best of us will wear out. 
>> Even though I was in shape enough to hump a pack & gear for a couple 
>> of days at the jog through the jungles on little rations, a 10 minute 
>> run in North Milanese transition plate with a fight at the end of it 
>> wiped me out even though I had been on a healthy diet. Perhaps I was 
>> not clear in my comparison so I hope this makes it more obvious.
>>
>> Steve Perrin wrote:
>>> Metal Plate Armor has one characteristic that modern combat gear 
>>> doesn't, possibly including modern armor. It doesn't allow any air 
>>> onto the body that wasn't already heated up by exertion already. 
>>> It's not the weight, it's the circulation. Moslem soldiers in the 
>>> Crusades did very fine with light armor. They knew how to build to 
>>> let some air circulate. The demo I am referencing was at the 3rd 
>>> DunDraCon, about 1978. Metal armor was already pretty common. Most 
>>> everyone had at least chain or scale over padding. And that padding 
>>> is no help to circulation, either.
>>>
>>> Sean and his soldier buddies in the early 70s in 'Nam were at the 
>>> height of the no armor doctrine in military combat wear. However hot 
>>> the air was in the jungle, it was at least circulating past your 
>>> skin. In armor, you bake.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Sven Lugar wrote:
>>>> And Steve that was in the day when SCA armor requirements were "a 
>>>> Helm - 18 guage or better steel" period end of sentence - even 
>>>> before basketball pads were required. (Yes, the misspelling of 
>>>> gauge is a deliberate. I'm copying what was written then.) Boy were 
>>>> we dumb then! I still have pictures of Steve & me from then.
>>>>
>>>> However, I did lead 12 fighters in full transition plate steel 
>>>> armour in a 9 minute fast run around the swamp & up the backside of 
>>>> the hill (approximately 7/8s of a mile) at Glen Helen park in 
>>>> 1980?? at the first Glen Helen War. We smacked so hard into the 
>>>> rear of the Aten army & they never saw us coming. We took out most 
>>>> of their army. No one It was muggy & in the high 90's & no one 
>>>> dropped from heat or had problems keeping up. Of course we weren't 
>>>> on a 14th ce peasants diet either. From personal experience I did 
>>>> 2-1/2 tours in very hot & humid terrain during the early 70's & we 
>>>> could hustle our buns (often at a dog trot back to the extraction 
>>>> point) all day & most of the night long for days on end without 
>>>> dropping despite carrying gear, weapons & ammo on us. In comparison 
>>>> Armour is lighter & better distributed weight wise than modern 
>>>> gear. These are notable exceptions to what most folk can take that 
>>>> have gotten remarked upon because they were unusual. Steve is quite 
>>>> correct in on how fatiguing it can get in a fight.
>>>>
>>>> My conclusion, yes there are exceptions to any case, but in general 
>>>> you'll have a good balanced game sticking by the fatigue rules that 
>>>> remain generally accurate.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Perrin wrote:
>>>>> You really don't have to go through such extremes. Just be part of 
>>>>> an SCA demo in full armor in an inside venue for 10 minutes. 
>>>>> You'll feel like you are in a steam room of a cruiser during the 
>>>>> battle of Manila Bay. (The only American casualty during that 
>>>>> battle was an engineer who died of heat exhaustion, wearing a 
>>>>> t-shirt and bell bottoms)
>>>>>
>>>>> Been there, done that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Perrin
>>>>>
>>>>> David Smart wrote:
>>>>>> Actually, I use the same fatigue rules as you do and imposed the 
>>>>>> same heat/humidity-based changes on fatigue when one of my player 
>>>>>> groups moved into a tropical jungle environment near my world's 
>>>>>> equator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If your friend really wants to put his ideas to the test, perhaps 
>>>>>> he'll agree to wearing his full armor suit in a wet sauna for 5 
>>>>>> solid minutes while jogging in place and raising his live steel 
>>>>>> sword and shield over his head every three seconds for the entire 
>>>>>> 5 minutes...after 1 month of eating a 14th century diet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I give him about 90 seconds (about 8 RQ rounds).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apologies if I seem a bit snippy but I've found that most 
>>>>>> reenactors have very little idea as to what the realities of 
>>>>>> medieval life were despite the plethora of research material 
>>>>>> available in print and on the Internet.
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>
> Andrew Larsen
> "But for three years I had roses, and I apologized to nobody."
> Alan Moore--V for Vendetta
>
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