[Runequest] [SPAM] Re: ***SPAM*** Armour weight/enc

Andrew Larsen aelarsen at mac.com
Mon Nov 2 13:44:17 EST 2009


There are a number of examples from the 14th and 15th centuries of men  
who chose to fight either without a helmet or with their faceplace  
open to improve air circulation and who died because of the choice.   
So there was some awareness of this problem even at the time.

Andrew E. Larsen
On Nov 1, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Sven Lugar wrote:

> Exactly, Steve! Which is why exceptions get talked about &  
> remembered because they are exceptions. I also know what peak  
> physical condition it required. Not everybody becomes a SEAL, Recon,  
> Green-weanie, etc. Just a small fraction of a percent.  Chris's re- 
> enactor buddy can point to the rare exceptions but as I have  
> experienced they are exceptions. Running in medieval armor is a  
> killer as I can attest. I know the extremes of performance & even  
> the best of us will wear out. Even though I was in shape enough to  
> hump a pack & gear for a couple of days at the jog through the  
> jungles on little rations, a 10 minute run in North Milanese  
> transition plate with a fight at the end of it wiped me out even  
> though I had been on a healthy diet. Perhaps I was not clear in my  
> comparison so I hope this makes it more obvious.
>
> Steve Perrin wrote:
>> Metal Plate Armor has one characteristic that modern combat gear  
>> doesn't, possibly including modern armor. It doesn't allow any air  
>> onto the body that wasn't already heated up by exertion already.  
>> It's not the weight, it's the circulation. Moslem soldiers in the  
>> Crusades did very fine with light armor. They knew how to build to  
>> let some air circulate. The demo I am referencing was at the 3rd  
>> DunDraCon, about 1978. Metal armor was already pretty common. Most  
>> everyone had at least chain or scale over padding. And that padding  
>> is no help to circulation, either.
>>
>> Sean and his soldier buddies in the early 70s in 'Nam were at the  
>> height of the no armor doctrine in military combat wear. However  
>> hot the air was in the jungle, it was at least circulating past  
>> your skin. In armor, you bake.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Sven Lugar wrote:
>>> And Steve that was in the day when SCA armor requirements were "a  
>>> Helm - 18 guage or better steel" period end of sentence - even  
>>> before basketball pads were required. (Yes, the misspelling of  
>>> gauge is a deliberate. I'm copying what was written then.) Boy  
>>> were we dumb then! I still have pictures of Steve & me from then.
>>>
>>> However, I did lead 12 fighters in full transition plate steel  
>>> armour in a 9 minute fast run around the swamp & up the backside  
>>> of the hill (approximately 7/8s of a mile) at Glen Helen park in  
>>> 1980?? at the first Glen Helen War. We smacked so hard into the  
>>> rear of the Aten army & they never saw us coming. We took out most  
>>> of their army. No one It was muggy & in the high 90's & no one  
>>> dropped from heat or had problems keeping up. Of course we weren't  
>>> on a 14th ce peasants diet either. From personal experience I did  
>>> 2-1/2 tours in very hot & humid terrain during the early 70's & we  
>>> could hustle our buns (often at a dog trot back to the extraction  
>>> point) all day & most of the night long for days on end without  
>>> dropping despite carrying gear, weapons & ammo on us. In  
>>> comparison Armour is lighter & better distributed weight wise than  
>>> modern gear. These are notable exceptions to what most folk can  
>>> take that have gotten remarked upon because they were unusual.  
>>> Steve is quite correct in on how fatiguing it can get in a fight.
>>>
>>> My conclusion, yes there are exceptions to any case, but in  
>>> general you'll have a good balanced game sticking by the fatigue  
>>> rules that remain generally accurate.
>>>
>>> Steve Perrin wrote:
>>>> You really don't have to go through such extremes. Just be part  
>>>> of an SCA demo in full armor in an inside venue for 10 minutes.  
>>>> You'll feel like you are in a steam room of a cruiser during the  
>>>> battle of Manila Bay. (The only American casualty during that  
>>>> battle was an engineer who died of heat exhaustion, wearing a t- 
>>>> shirt and bell bottoms)
>>>>
>>>> Been there, done that.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Perrin
>>>>
>>>> David Smart wrote:
>>>>> Actually, I use the same fatigue rules as you do and imposed the  
>>>>> same heat/humidity-based changes on fatigue when one of my  
>>>>> player groups moved into a tropical jungle environment near my  
>>>>> world's equator.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your friend really wants to put his ideas to the test,  
>>>>> perhaps he'll agree to wearing his full armor suit in a wet  
>>>>> sauna for 5 solid minutes while jogging in place and raising his  
>>>>> live steel sword and shield over his head every three seconds  
>>>>> for the entire 5 minutes...after 1 month of eating a 14th  
>>>>> century diet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I give him about 90 seconds (about 8 RQ rounds).
>>>>>
>>>>> Apologies if I seem a bit snippy but I've found that most  
>>>>> reenactors have very little idea as to what the realities of  
>>>>> medieval life were despite the plethora of research material  
>>>>> available in print and on the Internet.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
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Andrew Larsen
"But for three years I had roses, and I apologized to nobody."
Alan Moore--V for Vendetta







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